idrisz
3681
he isn’t a tank, he is someone that people shouldn’t ignore, tank is someone you want to ignore, but WW and mundo isn’t, you can’t ignore them because they gonna kill your team and laugh about it afterwards.
malphite is was OP because he does a ton of damage for a hard to kill character, same thing with garen(pre-nerf). if you build WW properly, that’s exactly what you get, a hard to kill character that deal out great damage.
and Mundo can easily carry, I have done it multiple times, with you in those games too(the last 2 games I played I carried as mundo with you in them, and you even want to surrender until I WTFPWNED the other team), I even done it on ranked as well, when you have someone who’s meleeing you for 280 damages as well as taking another 120 aoe magic damage and getting cleaved for 20% of your health every 5 seconds, you see why mundo is insane, and you can do all this without taking any attack item, with over 180 armor and close to 200+ magic resist.
It is kinda funny to see all these guys who used to be low to garbage tier (mundo, malph, garen, morde, gragas, etc.) now at or near the top of the current meta game without much if any buffing.
idrisz
3683
I even got the picture to prove it.
you were in both of those games, bunny.
first game you try to surrender after they push down our mid tower, then 2nd games they surrender after unable to win any team fights at all, I aced their team like twice in the first game.
for ranked I played 5 games with mundo, I won 4 of them, my average K:D:A is 6/3.2/8.8 with him.
I don’t think Morde is near the top of the meta-game pile? He is a bit weak early game (thanks, Riot!), pretty tough mid game, and fairly inconsequential late game - unless the other team don’t ignore him, and then he’s great for the rest of your team to move around. But… I could be wrong on that.
Ultrazen (Mundo) and I (Morde) just got face-rolled in a horrible game. We were laning against Shen and Twitch - two characters I hate laning against early already, and we died far too often. Then a fed, jungling Udyr just ate our entire team over and over until the 35 minute surrender. His items were Wiggles, Phantom Dancer, Ninja Tabai, Frozen Mallet and a giants belt. Nothing else was required for him to take down a couple of our team single-handed. Man, Udyr, gah!
bluemax
3685
But Garen outputs more damage without damage items than WW.
That’s the whole tanky DPS thing idrisz, its characters that naturally have high survivability and skills that let them do ridiculous damage WITHOUT buying attack items. Garen used to be able to obliterate teams by stacking sunfires. Malphite’s E does 400 damage with just a little bit of armor. Mundo has ridiculous health regen, a pseudo sunfire ability and an ability that doubles his attack damage. Mundo can press a key and have as much attack damage as an Ashe or Trist with Infinity edge, and he’s not going down in two shots.
WW has lifesteal and an ASPD buff but he’s still squishier and the damage output of his Q and R both require MPen, and in the case of R AD. You’re not gonna leap on to a full health carry with WW’s R and finish them off without building a few items, even at max level.
WW isn’t that scary in a team fight, his life steal just isn’t enough to keep him going if more than 1 person decides to attack him. In a team fight situation WW should either:
A. Dive the carry with his R if he thinks he can 1 hit KO, or knows his team will CC and get the kill after.
or
B. Wait outside the fight for a carry to get low and start fleeing, then dive them with R to finish them off.
After that he’s better served kiting in and out and poking with Q. If he stands in the middle of a fight like Garen or Mundo he’s gonna die. If you built him in such a way that he won’t immediately die then he’s not doing enough damage to be annoying and all he’s bringing is a slow.
Every champ can carry, that doesn’t mean they’re all carries.
Malph got a buff a while back, that’s why he suddenly appeared again. He used to be one of the best characters in the game (and by far the best jungler) back in Beta.
Garen was always strong, or at least had been a solid pick ever since he came out.
Morde has been through more changes then any other character to date (well except maybe Ez) and while he was a solid choice for a while in between changes he’s not anymore (a bit like Ez).
Gragus was always a solid champion and became godlike thanks to locket changes rather then anything to do with the actual character. He was only not picked up regularly because there are simply better picks.
Mundo owned 3v3 for a long time and like I said when 5v5 moved to an AoE rain of doom, he was on obvious choice. I still don’t think he’s that strong but no-one is going to laugh at you for picking him up anymore.
What’s interesting are the champions that were buffed like Malz and Eve that have now become super strong but still nobody plays them because of their previous trash tier level :)
idrisz
3687
garen doesn’t do more damage than WW though. WW’s Q will kill garen way before garen kills warwick.
that’s why the item priority is different, #1 build madred because it synergized with his R, then just build armor/resist, you don’t need other damage item.
bluemax
3688
Garen silences you then you can’t Q, he pops W and now your auto attack isn’t doing shit, he spins onto you and then DEMACIA.
Okay so yeah maybe WW can win 1v1 versus a lot of champs, but this isn’t a game of 1v1 fights.
Also I contend that WW needs more than one damage item too be effective these days. I’ve played a ton of WW the last 2 weeks and I don’t start becoming effective until I have Blood Razor and Malady. Before that R is only good at suppressing and finishing off really weak heroes. It ends up being more of an initiator than anything else.
Gragas also fell into one of those weird design holes where no one could decide what he was best at. Then with locket he became an OP tank. The new Zhonya’s change benefits him a lot.
Eve is a lot more common now and nobody laughs when she gets picked. I’ve seen a bit more Malz, but overall people still shy away from casters. I played Ryze again recently and was surprised by how good he can be. I wonder how long until we shift back to “whoever’s mage nuke goes off first wins”. Annie and Ryze used to be evil.
bluemax
3689
idrisz
3690
WW auto attack heal no matter how much damage it actually deal, garen’s Q silence last seconds before it wears off.
R shouldn’t be use as an initiation, but rather in middle of a fight.
To quote a good friend of mine “Screenshot or it never happened”.
Anyone can quote random numbers and call it official data. I want to see the actual logs that determined these results before I’ll turn around and say good job.
Also idrisz couldn’t be more right about WW’s Ulti. At a stretch it can be used as an initiation tool if your team truly has nothing better. But the whole point of it is to wait for the opponents to commit to the fight and then boom, down goes their main source of damage for at least 2 seconds.
Pogo
3692
You want them to upload hundreds of thousands of lines of logs so that you can go through and check their numbers?
No, I wouldn’t bother. I’m just making the point that until they do I wouldn’t take what they are saying as canon.
idrisz
3694
list of names would be nice.
Volbard
3695
Don’t you think it’s kind of paranoid to assume they’re lying? If you’re going to assume that, wouldn’t you think the logs are doctored too?
No, that would be both paranoid and to be honest if they were going spend the kind of effort needed to doctor logs on that kind of scale then they deserve whatever comes of it :)
I don’t see how asking for proof of a new system working as stated is paranoid though? I mean if Riot showed themselves to be at least semi-competent in any other things they have done then I might be less skeptical.
idrisz
3697
I don’t see how asking for proof of a new system working as stated is paranoid though? I mean if Riot showed themselves to be at least semi-competent in any other things they have done then I might be less skeptical.
how dare you question the company that won the best online technical award!!!
JoshV
3698
I felt like it didn’t really solve that much, people just went AFK, or worse, decided to just feed the other team.
AFK should be relatively easy to detect, at least the common cases. Detecting someone intentionally playing shitty might be a bit hard to detect.
Volbard
3699
At least there’s probably a smaller percentage of people willing to intentionally feed. It’s pretty easy to alt-tab for a bit, but actively being a jerk takes effort.
JoshV
3700
You could always test it yourself by leaving a bunch of games =)
