But if you have to choose with a black radical feminists lesbians right to choose sexual partners and define her safe spaces and white persons trans rights to have sex with lesbians they want to and enter rape counselling centres and DV and sexual violence victims refuges where do you stand?
My response is the cowards one. Run from the debate and state as a cis male it is not my place to dictate to either the radfems or the trans what they can or cannot do.
I added race because of the pillorying and litigation against of one of the black feminists (Linda Bellos) who helped define gay rights and black feminism.
Dipping my toe in gently to say that I am friends with some trans folks, and what they bring up about sports stories like those mentioned in this thread is how much havoc the drugs (hormones mostly, although there are others) required to transition wreak on the body. Even if the person does not elect for surgery. And you don’t exactly stop taking them.
I don’t know what there is to debate here. If you’re not interested in having a relationship with some one who is trans, then don’t have a relationship with them, sex or otherwise. We don’t force intimacy on people. If they say things that make them sound like a bigot, they probably are a bigot. It’s really none of their concern if someone else has that relationship.
Whether or not that affects someone’s lesbian status, well read the article above… there some insight to where the comes from, and it’s not as simple as a specific label says it is.
Lesbians are pressured into sex with trans because if they dont they are called transphobes, and it could be seen as coercion, especially in a progressive community where the label would mean they are a pariah.
We don’t force intimacy on people
The radfems are saying it is happening.
and what, I, a man is going to tell them its not and they are inventing rape claims? Are you really going to sit on the other side of the argument with me? I believe them.
When I was on Twitter is was an oft raised case. Their experiences, not mine. I noted some repetition which might have hinted at it not being widespread but again, I wouldnt point that out as it enables erasure.
I know all this as some are centrists and were allies in Labour circles so my feed documented the ongoing schism on a daily basis and i got to learn about a whole bunch of theory about identity, defining spaces, erasure and other stuff straight from gender and queer studies professors. Some were really good allies too, these include dedicated womens right and gay rights activists with decades of work behind them. Similarly in recent years Ive attended more talks on trans rights and empathise and sympathise with them like i have never done before, hence the sitting on the fence thing with my more public persona. This is should not be a fight with a winning side and a losing side.
but there are questions that need to be asked, because some very passionate people on both sides of this want the answers to be set in law. and handwaving it all away when its now involving assault isnt going to work.
Wolf is in Class War, an anarchist collective and provider of many black bloc for protests. They turned up at the court case threatening to punch any feminists they saw.
Oh and we all flee from even discussing a group of violent men and women physically attacking old women over gender politics because its such a hot potato and you can upset so many people, so you are right, there isn’t a debate to be had here.
You don’t tell them they are making it up. This smells a lot like the bathroom claims, like trans individuals are just waiting around to sexually assault people. It’s bullshit. There might be a few incidents, but they are few.
Assault is assault, and it has nothing to do with them being trans. You would treat it like assault, whether it involves cisgender or trans or any other group. This has nothing to do with allies and trans rights. What you’re talking about is sexual assault or assault. The two are not related…
Did you read the Linda Bellos link? Do you really think people like her are bullshitting? Why don’t you go and tell the people who created and defined modern equality legislation how they are a bunch of liars.
I don’t think you read what I said. I told you NOT to tell them they are making it up. What I am telling you is assault is assault. That doesn’t mean you label an entire group as bunch of people committing crimes. That is simply not true.
They are radical feminists discussing radical feminist theory and activism. The theory is just as important to them as the actual instances of it. I am not telling them anything at all. Im listening. Not speaking.
You were saying its bullshit. Not me. I believed them in the very first place.
I think it’s a safety issue. Say you are a cis-gendered lesbian, and you meet a woman and find yourself in an intimate setting. Then you maybe find out that your prospective partner has a penis and/or has an unexpected strength advantage over you. Either of those could really freak you out, and the strong social pressure not to be transphobic just makes it more complicated.
Lots of trans women-- I think more than half-- are lesbian. For some cis-gendered lesbians, having them in the dating space makes what they once considered a safe space feel dangerous again.
It is bullshit to say that the majority of trans people are out to sexually assault lesbians. To claim otherwise requires actual data and not some headlines on a few newspapers or personal stories. I’m not telling you their personal stories are bullshit, but the idea that you can just circle this group and claim they’re just crimes waiting to happen, that is.
And you’re not just listening. You are sharing their perspective here. I am not really sure what your goal is with this particular approach though.
Which is the kind of the risk a lot of women face when meeting someone they don’t know real well. Not to downplay it by any means, but I would hope lesbian women try to take the same precautions most women take when they meet someone and plan accordingly, trans or otherwise.
I don’t know what you’re trying to do or say at the moment, but I essentially responded to the question you actually asked.
But if you have to choose with a black radical feminists lesbians right to choose sexual partners and define her safe spaces and white persons trans rights to have sex with lesbians they want to and enter rape counselling centres and DV and sexual violence victims refuges where do you stand?
People have a right to choose who they have sex with. These are all people we’re talking about. I don’t know what the heck a safe space is when it comes to dating, but since they live in the real world, they can choose who they date, and we already defined they have a right to choose their sexual partners. This is not limited to trans or lesbians.
I am not saying any of this. Radical feminists are saying this. Really lefty feminists. Academics. Professional activists and across every faction that the social justice and progressive communities have.
I just spent a few years on Twitter watching it pass through my feed and got to learn all about a huge, complex issue. I didnt even so much as like a post. Im not getting involved in that fight. All I’m doing is saying what I’ve seen and stating it is a problem for this group of women who mainly reside in the L category, the first letter of the title of this thread. It is relevant. I could meticulously provide links to everything but thats a pain the arse. I am no longer on Twitter and all my LGBT activism stuff right now is in the corporate space, where ive spoken to trans activists from Mermaid and Stonewall.
I realize you’re not sharing your words but your experience with others but for what… reason? Not sure. I obviously can’t talk to random twitter posts you saw years ago.
Are you trying to say there is disagreement in this group? Well yeah when the groups are more inclusive that can happen. I mean the Women’s March has some infighting, as does every political party. I’m also not saying you have to contradict or debate anyone, but I will certainly not stay silent while any group suggest the trans group is somehow an elevated threat to lesbians or whatever all that up there is trying to convey. That’s right in the same theme as the bathroom freak-outs.
Because the LGBTQIA+ split is so bad that various factions are now physically assaulting each other and suing each other in court? That some of the big charities and organisations are split and rife with infighting? That two minority groups are claiming oppression and it needs to be highlighted? That groups of violent men are assaulting lesbian feminists in order to defend trans? That some radfems are bullying and harassing trans kids? As far as the radfems are concerned the lesbian identity, culture and community is under attack. As far as trans are concerned their identity, culture and community is under attack. Would we refuse to discuss it if they were under attack from gamers?
The whole concept of LGBT as a collective, Pride and the Rainbow coalition is under threat and might disappear for ever, like festivals like this. It ran for 39 years, breaking the ground for feminism and gay rights and now its no more, not because of Nazis, or MRAs, or Republicans or gamers, but because of internal splits in the community. That’s a tragedy.
OK, so i guess it should have been obvious to me but the term TERF is a slur, which… uh, well ok, i didn’t think about it too hard.
Anyway! there is this article at NBC from a couple weeks ago that outlines the basics.
More relevant i guess is that there have been a bunch of websites “coming out against TERFs.” I suppose the “TERFs” in this case seems to be “known but shall not be spoken of”, which in practice seems to have been the website AfterEllen, which has a couple trans-worry articles linked in the NBC piece above.
