Liberals also say and do stupid shit

The point is that the first point can’t be peer-tested until a lot of time has passed.

With regards to the second, there are and will be a lot of unintended consequences of insecticide-proof/generating GMO’s I believe. I could be wrong, but that’s just how evolution works.

You’re just restating what I said. For most people here, the pro-GMO argument is not compelling. But of course there are some circumstances that would make GMO products appealing, either by increasing their healthiness (golden rice in some parts of the world) or decreasing their cost (wherever food is scarce).

That doesn’t make GMO products absolutely good, it makes them conditionally good. And it has nothing to do with denying science.

Just for fun, imagine you have two glasses of water in front of you. One came from the tap, and the other was produced by reverse osmosis of a liter of my urine. It’s perfectly safe, and astronauts who have limited access to water drink purified urine all the time.

But even knowing this, if I can freely choose then I’m going to choose the tap water every time. Because (a) ewww and (b) who knows maybe something went wrong with the RO machine. Not only that, but if you offer me a nickel to choose the urine-water then I will still decline, even though it’s objectively better for my pocketbook.

Did it come from my tap? Cuz in about a month, Raleigh water gonna be gross as fuck for three weeks while they flush the system with some different class of antimicrobial substance (done on an annual basis to, I guess, knock out anything resistant to the other one they use the rest of the year).

Anyway, long story short, my water will taste like fermented pool water for the better part of a month, and I mean, how bad can your piss really be, @magnet? Statistically speaking, if you’re on a videogames forum, there’s like, what, a 60% chance you’re overweight enough to be prediabetic, so it might even be a little sweet!

* I get your point, but I wanted to bitch about Raleigh water

** Okay 60% is probably a little high but I’m just saying all the local boardgames stores recently replaced all their sagging, broken-down folding chairs with nice new big and tall chairs, and it’s not cuz everyone playing D&D every Wednesday is 6’8"… .

Citation needed

To me, the arguments against GMO’s fall into the same camp as climate science denial. It is based on fringe arguments circulated by quacks without basis in actual fact.

I would appreciate you to further elaborate on this. Because I don’t think cost and safety are opposed in that aspect. GMO’s don’t have any different safety requirements than non GMO’s? They undergo the same processing?

Published in the peer reviewed journal “Nature” last week

Extreme opponents of genetically modified foods know the least but think they know the most

There is widespread agreement among scientists that genetically modified foods are safe to consume1,2 and have the potential to provide substantial benefits to humankind3. However, many people still harbour concerns about them or oppose their use4,5. In a nationally representative sample of US adults, we find that as extremity of opposition to and concern about genetically modified foods increases, objective knowledge about science and genetics decreases, but perceived understanding of genetically modified foods increases. Extreme opponents know the least, but think they know the most. Moreover, the relationship between self-assessed and objective knowledge shifts from positive to negative at high levels of opposition. Similar results were obtained in a parallel study with representative samples from the United States, France and Germany, and in a study testing attitudes about a medical application of genetic engineering technology (gene therapy). This pattern did not emerge, however, for attitudes and beliefs about climate change.

I guess that is good that people are more literate about the science of climate change, we need to catch up on GMOs.

The Belgian research institute VIB released a report in September 2016 attempting to quantify the impact of GMOs on the environment:

Overall, the cultivation of GM crops over the last 18 years has delivered substantial benefits for the environment. Insect-resistant crops have resulted in a 230 million kg decrease in the use of insecticides. Herbicide-tolerant crops have led to reductions in fuel use and CO2 emissions of 6.3 billion liters and 16.8 million metric tons respectively, by supporting no-till farming. Overall, GM crops have produced an environmental benefit of 37%.

There are so many more studies like this. When you can build pest resistance into the crops, you end up using less insecticides. Certain crops, like roundup ready corn, focus on one pesticide, but that is not the only GMO in use. Bt corn has a protein in it that is toxic to insects that would reduce yield, and that is accomplished without the use of pesticides.

The selective skepticism on GMOs because Monsanto have made some bad PR moves is insane. This is technology that can reduce water usage, increase crop yields, make crops more temperature tolerant, and generally help feed our growing population while reducing the climate impact.

This doesn’t make any sense.

“GMO” doesn’t actually imply any specific type of wheat. It just means that it was created via some particular type of process.

In terms of “testing long term effects”, you should simply apply the exact same thing that you use on any food.

If I create some food via crossbreeding vs genetic modification makes no difference.

With this specific example… Who cares?

I mean, having a Glycosophate resistant strain go elsewhere doesn’t actually matter. It’s only got a competitive advantage in an environment where you are using Glycosophate. It’s not gonna just take over the world and dominate the Earth with wheat.

And for the record, Glycosophate is an herbicide, not an insecticide. It’s roundup. It kills the weeds.

In terms of GMO for things like insect resistance, the meet effect is a far lower amount of pesticides used, and far less actually in the food we consume. The “organic” method involves massive applications of chemical pesticides, constantly through the entire growing cycle… They are simply old pesticides.

GMO arguments probably do belong here. I don’t know any conservative friends who even bring this topic up. It’s a Facebook war every year or so so though.

Roundup is an herbicide not a pesticide, as Timex also mentioned.

Bt corn produces delta endotoxin, which kills certain larva. By definition, that’s a pesticide. So I don’t know what you mean by “accomplished without the use of pesticides”. It probably needs less sprayed pesticide, because it has a pesticide built in. Then again, you can wash sprayed pesticides off your food but you can’t wash delta endotoxin off. You can also buy pesticide free food, though it probably costs more. Is it worth it? Maybe to some.

Suppose you went to a bar and ordered a beer, and saw a clump of material at the bottom of the glass. You say, “Hey bartender, this glass is dirty!” “Don’t worry bro, that’s just some delta endotoxin that fell in there by mistake. It won’t hurt ya. In fact I’ll take a dollar off your bill.” I don’t know about you, but I would make him give me another glass of beer without any delta endotoxin, tyvm. Keep the dollar.

I can’t believe you are going to start in on semantics here. Of which you are wrong.

Pesticides is a general term that encompasses all chemicals used to control pests, which include both insect and plant pests.

You are very correct! Good job! A herbicide is a type of pesticide! Hooray!

Did he clean that cup with bleach? Fuck man, that shit could kill you if you drink it! Oh man, they used antibacterial dish soap? Fuck… I wouldn’t drink dish soap at home!

wait…

he used dihydrogen monoxide to clean that glass? I am staying away.

Despite the known dangers of DHMO, it continues to be used daily by industry, government, and even in private homes across the U.S. and worldwide. Some of the well-known uses of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

  • as an industrial solvent and coolant,
  • in nuclear power plants,
  • by the U.S. Navy in the propulsion systems of some older vessels,
  • by elite athletes to improve performance,
  • in the production of Styrofoam,
  • in biological and chemical weapons manufacture,
  • in the development of genetically engineering crops and animals,
  • as a spray-on fire suppressant and retardant,
  • in so-called “family planning” or “reproductive health” clinics,
  • as a major ingredient in many home-brewed bombs,
  • as a byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion in furnaces and air conditioning compressor operation,
  • in cult rituals,
  • by the Church of Scientology on their members and their members’ families (although surprisingly, many members recently have contacted DHMO.org to vehemently deny such use),
  • by both the KKK and the NAACP during rallies and marches,
  • by members of Congress who are under investigation for financial corruption and inappropriate IM behavior,
  • by kids who play Beyblades,
  • by the clientele at a number of bath houses in New York City and San Francisco,
  • historically, in Hitler’s death camps in Nazi Germany, and in prisons in Turkey, Serbia, Croatia, Libya, Iraq and Iran,
  • in World War II prison camps in Japan, and in prisons in China, for various forms of torture,
  • during many recent religious and ethnic wars in the Middle East,
  • by many terrorist organizations including al Qaeda,
  • in community swimming pools to maintain chemical balance,
  • in day care centers, purportedly for sanitary purposes,
  • by software engineers, including those producingDICOM software and other DICOM software tools,
  • by popular computer science professors,
  • by aspiring young adult fiction writers and mental health advocates,
  • by international travel bloggers,
  • by the semi-divine King Bhumibol of Thailand and his many devoted young working girls in Bangkok,
  • by the British Chiropractic Association and the purveyors of the bogus treatments that the BCA promotes,
  • by commodities giant Trafigura in their well-publicized and widely-known toxic-waste dumping activities in Ivory Coast,
  • in animal research laboratories, and
  • in pesticide production and distribution.

Some pretty gnarly stuff.

I can’t believe how risky I was being with my health! I just got a dog, and I found out that CHOCOLATE IS POISONOUS!!! I can’t believe I got away with eating it for this long.

I guess we, as human beings, metabolize compunds exactly the same as other mammals, like dogs, so it is pretty obvious that something toxic, Bacillus thuringiensis, a bacteria found naturally in soil, to corn borers would kill me, a human.

Bleach, soap, pesticide, and soil are rinsed from your food before ingestion. GMO products are not.

I mean, I get that you don’t care what’s in a list of ingredients, provided some authority currently deems it safe. But not everyone looks at it that way.

Nothing is risk free. Even when experts think something is safe, experts occasionally change their mind. See: trans-fats, radium, thalidomide etc. And there are valid precautionary principles that don’t depend on expert opinion. For example, limit unnecessary exposures. And novel substances (like trans-fats, radium, and thalidomide) are more uncertain than age-old substances (like dihydrogen monoxide).

So, science is a liar sometimes?

Science is not a liar. It is fundamentally honest. But honest people make mistakes. So science is wrong sometimes. All scientists know that.

Okay, I didn’t know that, assuming you are right. But I do know if you walked into your nearest hardware store and asked for that pesticide called Roundup they would tell you it is in the herbicide aisle.

I am

If you are going to argue semantics at least be correct about it. It is also a really common mistake, to the point where if someone were to mix up the two I wouldn’t bring it up. People very commonly assume pesticide is only referring to insecticides, when it is more of a blanket term.

Also dibs on Nematicide for the next name for my Metal band.

O, the chastisement!

Yay, I finally learned something new in this thread that has nothing to do with orcs.

I wonder if orcs exude a pesticide, and if so would it be natural or not?

If I understand correctly, orcs are a pesticide.

Now you’re just concern trolling

It’s a bad hobbit of mine. Sorry, man.

BT corn is corn that is modified with a gene from Bacillus thuringiensis, hence the name “BT”.

You know what you get with organic corn?

Corn that has been sprayed with immense amount of BT. Like really, the amount that is used is gigantic, applied over and over again. And you are never really gonna wash it all off. It’s exactly the same stuff though that is produced in minute quantities in BT crops.

It’s basically safe for human consumption, and has been used since the 20’s.

Most likely though? You are gonna consume less BT eating BT corn, than USDA Organic grown corn.

Any really, no, you can’t buy food grown without pesticides, unless you grow it yourself. Virtually every “organic” farmer is going to be spraying BT all over his crops.