2833

Is it distasteful to exploit a death if you are pushing a bad agenda, but OK if you are pushing a good one?

If so, then there is no point to ever complain about someone being exploited. Everyone thinks their cause is a good one and therefore immune from criticism.

2834

Yes, these two things are very clearly different.

Because in the former, you are supporting bad stuff.

But in this case, what is the bad agenda that they think is good?

Again, what is the bad agenda supported by condemning the Armenian genocide?

2835

Ilhan objects to the Armenian genocide being wielded as a political cudgel against Turkey. Not because Turkey is good or anything, but because it makes recognition of genocide into a political tool rather than a statement about the victims, an honest evaluation of the role we have played in similar genocides, and a commitment not to let anything like it happen again.

2836

Of course they are different. But do you think that exploiting death ok, as long as it’s done for a good cause?

I think they are both wrong, though obviously exploiting death for a bad cause is even worse than doing so for a good cause.

Imagine your local elementary school held a bake sale on 9/11, with little cupcakes shaped like the twin towers with red frosting to symbolize the flames. That’s horrible judgment, even if you support raising money for the school. And obviously it would be even worse if the money went to Trump’s reelection instead of the school.

2837

Or imagine if Germany stiffed the U.S. in trade negotiations and Angela Merkel said some unkind things about our President. And then Congress decided to retaliate by passing a resolution condemning the Holocaust. The Holocaust is worthy of condemnation, but using it as a political cudgel against Germany in this way would cheapen both it and the long fight to have genocide recognized as an atrocity.

2838

Only… the real scenario is that we only opposed the resolution forever because of political reasons.

If we hadn’t seen Turkey as important to fighting the Soviets and a place to base missiles we would’ve passed the resolution decades ago. It’s not like we pulled it out of our asses, it’s been a thing people have been fighting to have passed for basically my whole life.

2839

Yes, of course. So Armenians should understand that they would still be neglected by Congress, if it weren’t for the Kurds.

Do you think Armenians should thank Kurds for their unintended sacrifice? Or Congress for their hard work? Maybe the proper response is, “Thanks for nothing.”

This is a political re-gifting. Look, the card still says “For my beloved Kurds!” Well, I guess they should be happy that they got anything this year.

2840

So, again, the solution is to never do it and pretend it never happened?

I’ll stop because we’ll obviously never see eye to eye on this.

2841

The solution is to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide when there isn’t an obvious ulterior motive. You know, the same way the House officially recognizes the death of a president and most other tragedies.

This is entirely a symbolic gesture. Do it right or don’t do it at all.

2842

This is a disingenuous argument at best (and you aren’t the only one making it, so I’m not specifically trying to attack you). Even if we accept the premise, which is absurd because it means we have to accept that Congress was just constantly grinding its teeth trying not to condemn Turkey for the sake of our missiles and then finally did it when there was a moment that provided sufficient cover for it, but even if we accept that premise, this resolution is still just outright admitting that condemning genocide has nothing to do with the killing and everything to do with how useful the perpetrators are. It tells all dictators, “Hey, watch out! If you try to wipe out that ethnicity you hate, a hundred years from now we might write your successors a strongly worded letter. But only if they cross us!”

This argument is very similar to the “but why not condemn genocide?” argument. It wasn’t like there was some immediate pressing need to bring this bill to the floor when we haven’t bother despite it being talked about for decades and when the act itself is more than a century in the past. Continuing to not condemn this one particular genocide wasn’t some fire burning down our house. It wasn’t even the largest or highest-profile one we’ve ignored. It’s basically the equivalent of the “I’m just investigating corruption” argument. We’re just condemning genocide; we happen to have started with this one politically convenient one and we’re planning to stop right afterwards, but still isn’t condemning genocide, in general a good thing?

2843

A better analogy would be if Germany invaded the Czech Republic.

2844

Is anyone asking Armenians what they would like the US to do? I think Omar, Johnson and the other nays should engage with them, be they American Armenians or Armenians* because their lens, views, experiences etc matter most.

This all sounds a bit like looking a gift horse in the mouth tbh.

Oh, and I too am biased by Omars affinity (loyalty is not the right word and too harsh) to the ummah and association with the anti-imperialist movement

You watch what happens if the anti-imperialists gain power in the UK GE. Corbyn and his circle are the fathers of the anti-imperialist movement, with decades of close friendships, alliances, employment and links with the USSR/Russian Federation, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Venezuela, Libya, Iraq, Sudan and the DPRK. Their foreign policy is entirely based around friendship and alliances with these nations. If you want to see “Liberals say and do stupid shit” then politicians declaring solidarity with the DPRK or writing articles defending Stalin and denying the Holodomor top the bill.

*Or even ask Serge and the SOAD guys.

2845

The Kurds and their supporters would strongly disagree.

2846

“Kurd” does not appear even once in HR 296.

If Congress wants to show support for the Kurds, then they should write a resolution about the Kurds.

Anyway, Turkey’s response today to HR 296 amounts to, “Genocide? You don’t really mean that, you’re just upset about our military intervention”. How predictable.

2847

When i was last in Bodrum Airport there were huge banners and posters of a picture of a pile of corpses with load of text about how this is a fake image and that the Armenian Genocide never happened and read more in Book by Author. All over the airport. Within the last decade. Genocide denial is like a national sport or something for their right wingers. This hurts them more than sanctioning Halkbank or the Ministry of Defence ever will, and Erdogan bought it on them.

2848

It would hurt Turks more if they couldn’t quickly explain it as an outburst by American sore losers.

Those who felt defeated for not being able to forestall Operation Peace Spring would be highly mistaken should they think they could take vengeance this way

2849

The nationalists, yes. The secularists idolize MKA so they can’t acknowledge or criticize any flaw in him. For most people, this period in the origin story of their republic is taught in school only as heroic and virtuous, without any introspection. Most Turks I know, despite high education level, factually still deny anything unflattering happened. It is as if post-WW2 German school curriculum left out the “final solution” parts, and German adults today couldn’t understand why everyone is so harsh about their Holocaust denial.

2850

Despite this being an intentionally loaded question, I think that the answer is probably… Yes? It’s fine?

I don’t think it really matters. Genocide is bad. I don’t have any problem condemning it, in any situation. It’s always bad. I don’t see any case where such condemnation is going to result in some negative, unintended consequences.

2851

This would only be somewhat applicable if Germany denied the Holocaust & pressured the US to avoid officially recognizing it, like Turkey has denied the Armenian Genocide.

Armenians in America overwhelmingly support the US officially recognizing the genocide. This is a big deal, as so many had family members that were affected by it. My ex’s grandmother lost her parents and was lucky to have survived herself.

2852

and the nays have told them to fuck off basically, and some with a holier than thou attitude to it too.