No, Orcs were, like elves, created separately from Humans.

Orcs are not humans. They are monsters.

And this is where the superficial similarity creates a false equivalence between “monsters” and “treating humans as though they are monsters”.

See, a problem with racism is that humans are treated as though they aren’t human… as though they are in fact another species. As though they are a race of monsters or animals, and thus not deserving of human rights.

But the existence of the concept of a non-human monster or animal isn’t the racist part. The concept of an orc isn’t racist, because it doesn’t demean a human… because orcs are, explicitly, not human.

Racism would come in if you were to suggest that some group of humans were in fact orcs.

To take things to an analogical level that doesn’t involve fantasy creatures, we can consider the notion of primates, like a monkey.

The notion of a monkey is not at all racist. The fact that they have lower intelligence than humans, etc. is not racist.

Racism enters into the fray when you start to suggest that some group of humans, like black people, are in fact monkeys, or are like them. Because they are in fact humans, and you are trying to strip them of their humanity.

Can we please not argue with timex about the corruption of the orcs in Tolkien again? The last three hundred post thrill ride nearly killed me.

“X was designed to Y” is a routine rhetorical flourish these days, but does tend to hide some fucking huge assumptions.

How could D&D possibly have been designed to appeal to any demographic or market segment? Gygax wasn’t in marketing, and nobody in marketing knew how to market RPGs anyway because they didn’t exist. So where would the tools for this careful targeting have even come from?

Beyond all the false rhetorical implications that come from “designed”; you replied in defence of your original comment, without even really defending it.

It can be true both that it was invented by someone with those views and appealed initially to people susceptible to those views yet now appeals to a much broader audience

Implies that the initial cohort of players probably shared Gygax’s views (whatever they actually were?) because they were “susceptible”. How and why would they have been “susceptible”? What would they have been susceptible to, if they had no way of knowing what his views even were?

There seems to be a lot of hinting and handwaving at something. What is the actual objectionable thing?

Orcs aren’t inherently racist. However can, intentionally or not, be placed in that way. Especially when you consider the context and genesis of many of the tropes used.

Fantasy species can be coded to mimic real life cultures and races. And racial coding is very much a thing to be aware of. And this can be racist if certain tropes and stereotypes are used in exclusively negative manners.

If your evil species is exclusively using manners of speech, styles of dress, physical descriptions, etc that pertain to (often inaccurate Victorian era derived) certain cultural stereotypes of African or Asian peoples? Worth considering the impact of that.

As for the Tolkien angle, well, there are certain aspects that seep in. However this is as much to do with the source and intent to mimic and curate a mythology influenced by the various European mythologies. Borrowing from Celtic, Norse, Germanic myths to forge a world both unique, but matching the tone and styles. Add in the era and certain things do come in, but not borne of malice.

It is later, lazier, writers who much of the issue comes from. And historically orcs have absolutely been coded as different races, and making them exclusively the bad guys carries implications.

Does this mean Gygax is bad? No, not at all. D&D was more mechanical than narrative, using common fantasy elements. So it certainly picks up baggage from that, but is not creating any of its own. Not really in its original form.

But because it draws so heavily from pulp fantasy tropes and stereotypical elements, if those start to draw on lazy and racists implications it will, by extent, taint D&D because it did not forge its own clean mythology. So if all of a sudden everything in broader popular culture starts coding orcs with racists stereotypes*? Well then D&D starts getting looked askance at its own use. Fair or not.

*to be clear I am bot stating this happened exclusively or ubiquitously. Happened, yes, but not all writers were so lazy.

Well, D&D borrowed heavily from Tolkien, so I think it’s fair to say that it was designed to appeal to Tolkien fans in the same way that fantasy football was designed to appeal to football fans.

Not really sure we are talking about teenagers, though. Gygax was in his 30s when he developed D&D, and I suspect he playtested it with people his age.

But I think that this is backwards.

Those traits you describe are simply “bad”. For instance, low intelligence, brutish violence, etc.

The racism comes into play when those traits are attributed to subsets of humanity. The notion of those traits themselves aren’t racist. And creating a fictional non-human species which is, as part of its very existence, “bad”, isn’t racist… although it’s going to possess those same “bad” traits.

Again, we are running into the notion of declaring something racist, simply by virtue of it sharing similar subconcepts… Creation of any such “bad” fictional species is going to involve giving them “bad” traits… that’s what makes them bad. That’s what makes them into a good enemy. Their literary purpose in the fictional universe is to be the bad guys.

The fact that orcs may share qualities with a racist perspective on humans isn’t racist… it’s simply due to the fact that the racist presentation of humans is trying to achieve the same thing… they are trying to present some race of humans a “bad”. So they are misattributing those same bad qualities to them. But THAT is the racist part.

Ultimately if Tolkien’s elves had darker, more African features there would never be a debate about what Orcs were supposed to represent. Instead Elves were pure blood lily white Finnish types and men were Western Europeans fighting off the hordes from the east. The retroactive absence of diversity in Tolkien’s fiction informs modern sensibilities.

Ok, but I think the point is that when fictional “bad” traits coexist with neutral real world traits, the result can be racist.

For instance, the brutish Orks in WH40K have a Cockney accent. That’s just hilarious.

However, the greedy Trade Federation aliens in The Phantom Menace had a vaguely Japanese accent. Either by itself might be ok, but the juxtaposition is arguably quite racist.

I could see this, as it’s essentially taking traits from a specific subset of humans, and using them to create a similarity between a race of humans, and some enemy species.

But the real world “hoards” in this case, which (all protests from Tolkien himself aside) likely influenced Tolkien’s story… were other Europeans. They were the Germans that the allies were fighting in the world wars.

And again, the elves and orcs weren’t the only races in Tolkien. You also had dwarves… and men. Now, if you want to really get into things that could be perceived as racist, it’s not the orcs. It’s the fact that I think all the black HUMANS fought for Sauron.

You make your entertainment where you can in a time of COVID.

Also, that was a suspicious statement. You sound like you have a pretty low CON score.

EVERYONE I THINK ARMANDOPENBLADE IS SECRETLY AN ELF!

Guys don’t forget this one
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien’s_Works#Dwarves_as_Jews

Driven from their ancestral home, obsessed with wealth, using fancy words… dwarves are anti-semetic!

I found a long thread online full of liberals saying stupid shit. The whole thing is great, but fast forward to the last few days for some really great stuff!

(jk jk jk)

I mean i don’t like looking too hard at Tolkien mainly because there just wasn’t this need for diversity back then - to be English pretty much meant being Anglo-Saxon.

But as fantasy has become more diverse i think in general it’s consciously moved away from racist undertones by making humans more explicitly diverse. To be honest the Robert Howard low fantasy full of cheesecake and swarthy easterners is probably a bit more guilty in modern terms than Tolkien at perpetuating certain incel like attributes and themes to fantasy in general. (The Conan series were all written by a 20’s year old, while the LoTR were written by a much older man).

I’d be fine with vote for Biden, then immediately investigate him for the assault and if he looks guilty, impeach him on day 1.

The initial cohort of players were his kids and his friends. They probably knew what his views were, but — again — that’s irrelevant. I don’t think they liked it because of his views. He made a game that appealed to himself, and other people liked it because the kinds of things that appealed to him appealed to them too. That’s hardly a sinister claim, and I don’t really get why it bothers you so much it causes you to deny he could have had any idea at all who might like to play his game; to claim in effect that he was making a game with no conception of who might be interested in it.

What objectionable thing?

That’s not what I am talking about. I didn’t pick those attributes.

Let me give an example of explicit racial coding in fantasy. Bright, the Will Smith movie on Netflix. There the racial coding is not even subtext, it’s explicit text. Orcs are deliberately coded as inner city black.

It’s not the orc traits that are the coding, it’s the dress, language, style, etc.

Now Tolkien did not have that type of explicit coding of orcs. In fact I wouldn’t say Tolkien orcs were coded as anything except as an echo of the Biblical angels cast from heaven narrative. Which tracks with much of the rest of the Silmarillion, much of the story is a deliberate follow of the creation myth.

However through the years in many lesser pulp stories the orcs, dwarves, elves, etc have been coded as different cultures. Sometimes innocently or innocuously, sometimes not.

For an example of coding in Tolkien, see the Southron men. They are an intentional Persian pastiche. Their darker complexion, style, elephants, etc are all nods to the armies of Xerxes. Now that may not have been intentional, but the only darker skinned humans in LotR are the evil Sauron aligned ones. Which is the kind of thing that would get red flags today.

And again, my point is not that Tolkien himself coded racism into his orcs. Just that in the decades that followed we did see examples where this happened. And D&D, by being a loose thematic framework for the mechanics, certainly at times could lend itself to people, either by intent or accident, reverting to lazy and occasionally racist tropes.

That’s not a flaw with D&D, per se. just how lazy pop culture was too often used to using shorthand references to actual peoples and cultures in their world building without considering the implications of having the only non white identifiable groups be the bad guys. People recognize it more today, and for the better.

But the history of Orientalism and othering, especially in Victorian era writings, is a thing.

Orc’s are usually Chaotic Evil - which is pretty racist in and of itself. ;)

Won’t anyone think of the poor Orcs?

But there aren’t any Orks in D&D!

This guy? This guy gets it.

That’s a really key point. Orcs are only in Tolkeins work and racist as shit. Orks, as a general fantasy trope, are pretty harmless unless a specific work goes out of way to pull some racist crap.

If you’re interested in why this all trended suddenly, this was the start of it all.

The passage is from the newest Volo’s Guide to Monsters