Agreed. Though I doubt she is gliding through life naively while receiving many dozens of death threats daily and obsessive attention from right wing media. AOC is not experiencing a life of golden platters or bone spur exemptions.
Saying she is surrounded by yes men warping her into an undisciplined autocrat is jumping the shark.
Nesrie
3848
Oh for crying out loud, that reads right up there in trying to determine if money is wasted in races that were lost. No, no and again no. We’re in it for the long-term. You don’t decide xyz money is wasted because this immediate race is lost. It takes years, YEARS, to move a needle. How you want to prove that needle is moving the day after? It’s a ridiculous demand she is giving. She’d probably know that if she spent more than five minutes in politics, or she already knows that is trying to demand the impossible.
What do you think you’re doing right now?
Timex
3849
No, not at all. But she went from 0 to national stage instantly. She has certain very strong talents, largely from her youth… she understands modern communications better than most older politicians, which is why she beats down the GOP every time they come at her.
But she still makes unforced errors… this isn’t the first, either. Hell, even that responsejust posted from her… She hasn’t seen that data, huh? Seems like it would be a bit early for such data, hmm? I’m guessing she’s looked for such data… Zero. I think that she has spent literally zero time investigating actual data on that thing.
It’s not the end of the world. Criticising her doesn’t mean i want her destroyed. This isn’t a thread for people who must be destroyed. It’s a thread of people saying dumb things.
Discussing on a forum.
I understand she has cult-like status and is likely surrounded by devoted folk.
That said, she has plenty of external pressure and a modest background to keep her more aligned with reality than Trump’s experience.
Nesrie
3851
Criticizing her specific statement is not a statement of wanting to see her destroyed nor is it a statement that diminishes her past, her future or how she got to where she is. She is allowed mistakes. What she said was a mistake. People need to be able to tell her that, and she needs to hear it. Whether she takes it to heart or not is up to her, but her fan shields needs to let this through.
That follow-up doesn’t make any sense either. Again, that $67 million wasn’t stolen from Democrats or other liberal organizations. Lincoln Project made good ads against Trump. They got lots of eyeballs, they created buzz, and they were savvy with social media. They earned that money whether or not anyone ever finds any hard numbers about their influence on the election.
Quite fair.
Also I hope my wording wasn’t accusing you or anyone else. I think or hope we are in broad agreement but have differing thoughts about the smaller details.
ShivaX
3854
Death threats from people who oppose her. That’s very different from yes-men on your team telling you everything you do is correct.
Being surrounded by devoted folk is… how you get yes-men and people like Trump.
She needs people on her side that tell her when she screws up.
People who oppose her will say everything she ever does is terrible.
People who are on her side need to tell her when she actually does something that is bad.
If nothing else she needs people good at political messaging that can tell her. Let’s say she’s 100% correct and LP did nothing. She gained nothing by slighting them. She didn’t advance her cause and likely hurt it. Why? The only answers I can come up with is ego or fringe political points. Neither are good ideas, because fair or not, she is a face of the Party.
Campaign to the middle, legislate from where you are, is an effective tactic. She’s effectively always campaigning for the Democratic party. It’s not fair, but it also gives her a lot more influence than some newbie Congresscritter could ever dream of. Burning bridges for Twitter points isn’t a good call and someone on her team should be there to tell her as much.
Timex
3856
On last thing re: Lincoln Project…
They actually didn’t just do viral ads.
They also did a bunch of voter turnout efforts with various groups. Here’s one targeting latinos in Texas:
They set up voter suppression reporting sites:
And regarding the ads… they weren’t just done for the luls… Here’s a bit where they talk about how they actually mined data to target specific voting groups:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/lincoln-project-ad-against-trump-million-165250112.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZGFpbHlrb3MuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABniozWDDE9xQrHLaw1TPF39dqOhzCCGxMVVTOsYvWObWwSs-I5z2y9ME0uQpgFa3aBfQNoOqI7udhz9m8X2wJ6mDTLFi2PShAF1HYfOZDMRcd9HFh7jMmD3d8n40wydw8ZetMsG1kB7FbH7wHYuMkY897lY0vHSEzvhd0DQxxtp
Aceris
3857
I note you don’t link the tweet where she says they are “in scam territory”. That’s not reasonable.
I mean, ultimately she’s a far left populist. Attacking the most right wing people who are nominally on her side at any point is a core part of the playbook.
It’s not about that kind of privilege. It’s about an adoring following on social media who will validate whatever she says, and shout down anyone who disagrees.
This whole conversation is people punching AOC, who is surely one of our allies.
Aceris
3859
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy, no more and no less.
Mainstream Democrats should remember this both when thinking of the Lincoln Prject and the DSA (including AOC). Both explicitly reject mainstream social democracy (the DSA may see it as a stepping stone, but that is all).
I’m not at all sure that’s fair. If the US were to become mainstream social democracy like e.g. Denmark, I think the DSA would be pleased with that outcome. The differences between the DSA and the Democrats might loom large over here, but in European democracy terms they’re not that far apart.
Edit: Badly worded; I’m trying to say that the difference between the US and the European social democracy model is larger than the differences between the Democrats and the DSA.
Aceris
3861
In my experience in this european democracy, democratic socialists are keen to denounce social democrats as “neoliberals”, funnel electoral resources away from them even if it costs the party as a whole, and commit unlawful racist harassment and intimidation in the service of maintaining the loyalty of the crank elements of the base.
Hell, in the aftermath of this election their most prominent media cheerleaders have been busy attacking Biden for being too moderate. They don’t see social democrats as their friends.
Now the DSA doesn’t have quite the same toxic legacy, but the idea that social democrats and democratic socialists are “not that far apart” seems like a fantasy to me.
Well, it’s a bit like comparing American conservatism and European Conservative parties. They aren’t the same things. Fixating on the labels as the way to compare them strikes me as a mistake.
Matt_W
3863
I actually would be curious to see data about the successfulness of the LP’s ad strategy. Not sure Times Square ad money was well-spent, but probably they did some good?
That said, these dudes raised a shit-ton that isn’t, you know, going to be dedicated to electing Democrats. They’re all professional erstwhile-GOP ratfuckers who were instrumental in driving their former party into a ditch. How much effort and money did they spend on down-ballot races for Democrats this cycle?
I don’t think we’ll have any kind of data on the effectiveness of the Lincoln Project’s efforts for a long time, if ever. It’s probably unfair at this point to say that their spending directly resulted in the lost House seats because so many different factors impact those races. But they did spend money making ads against McConnell and Graham if I remember correctly, and they won their races by giant margins.
I disagree with everyone implying there are only two sides and that we must praise those on “our” side while only attacking those on “their” side. There are a multitude of sides here, and AOC and the LP are on different ones.
I imagine the LP’s goal is to get Trump out of the executive branch but to otherwise keep enough Republicans in the legislature to prevent the left from doing too much social good. The progressive wing of the Democratic party’s goal is to get Trump out of office and get the legislature under Democratic control AND pass progressive legislation. Remove Trump from the equation, and the goals are no longer in alignment.
Matt_W
3865
Well said. I mean you can sense a bit of frustration that rank-and-file Democrats who’ve been pounding shoe leather, staffing phone banks, knocking on doors, driving people to the polls, etc get little notice while these rich ex-Republicans make a few snarky ads and everyone exclaims how “They’re just better at this than Democrats” and shovels money and media attention their way.
I mean we’ll see what the LP does with its war chest. Priority one for the next two years is preserving the House and taking the Senate. There are ways that a conservative Democratic media organization can contribute to that effort. Is The Lincoln Project a conservative Democratic media organization now?
I think we’ll find out on Day One of a Biden Presidency. I hope so, but I expect not.
If I were AOC, I would have at least waited to give them a chance to prove or disprove themselves as a long-term ally before launching attacks. Right now, everything is just too muddy to pull out direct cause and effect from the LP’s actions.
