4149

Agreed. I think it’s possible to have a discussion of problematic behavior or beliefs among some elements of the left wing without slipping into bothsiderism or trying to handwave off worse offenses elsewhere. Scott has a point that it does need to be handled with a bit of care, but the existence of felony crimes doesn’t invalidate the need for traffic court.

4150

Bothsidersism is definitely a thing, I’ve seen it plenty of places, especially from never-Trumpers.

To me, this was a discussion of specifically left-wing issues with antisemitism, we’re not giving cover to bothsiderism here in general , and I want to avoid whitewashing the problem away because we’re better than that.

I don’t think criticism of Israel is antisemitism, and I get annoyed when folks try to imply such (and most Republicans and a few Democrats do this)- usually when Republicans do the antisemitism cry, it’s often to avoid legitimate criticism of Israel, or for bothsiding to appeal to their own base.

4151

As a total generalization I think you would find fewer defenders of Israel on the left while finding more attackers of Jews on the right.

4152

Now that, as a generalization, I would say is true. Though I would rephrase defenders. More critics of Israel on the left, and fewer carte blanche apologists.

Because millenarianism in evangelical circles is absolutely a thing.

As for whether all criticisms about Israel are fair or valid? Well certainly no.

4153

This is something you literally stated, and you are being appropriately taken to task over it.

4154

I think most of us are in agreement on what is going on, we’re just phrasing things differently/leaving things out because we’re forgetting about them or they’re not relevant to the points we’re making.

4155

There’s nothing alleged about it.

It’s not traffic court.

A major party was found to have committed acts of unlawful racist intimidation and harassment, and agreed to implement the reforms required by the statutory anti-racism body, who will monitor compliance (The leadership responsible had been booted out by this point). Incidentally, our very own @scottagibson was keen to portray these allegations of racism as smears at the time (as was Angela Rayner, incidentally, which is why people are so sensitive about her language), and now even after the judgement is out he refers to these proven racist acts as “alleged”.

Indeed, the thing is that it’s actually quite easy to criticise Israel without being antisemitic. Since this started with a discussion of Anas Sarwar’s victory, here’s a quote from him:

“There is no contradiction between the IHRA definition and the ability to say that [Israeli Prime Minister] Benjamin Netanyahu is a odious individual who is a stain on international peace [or] saying that the actions of the Israeli Government go against several UN resolutions and are inhumane, unjust and completely and utterly despicable.”

“It is not appropriate for the actions of the Israeli Government to be used as a way of discriminating against the Jewish community more widely."

I agree that the US is very different. I’m not sure what the manifold crimes of the fascist GOP have to do with the behaviour of the deputy leader of the UK Labour party, mind you.

4156

As I said that’s my personal experience. From the crime statistics it’s pretty clear most originate from the right. I said it above as well.

4157

Oh, yes, I’m sure I said any and all allegations of racism against any member or employee of the Labour Party are smears.

Turns out there was a reason I put you on ignore before. Back you go!

4158

You are claiming that you are not saying it’s more common in one group or the other while literally saying it is more common in one group. How can you not see a problem with those two statements together?

4159

I’m saying I have my personal experience, which is inherently anecdotal, and we have the stats. I dont have the hubris in me to try and claim my personal experience is the experience of everyone. It seems a pretty easy delineation to me between ones own experience and the ways we measure more general or avaerage experiences.

4160

You understand that the actual Nazis, the real life actual ideology that not only led to the death of millions of Jewish individuals including other groups of minorities and instigators of one of the largest wars in modern history is actually on the right of political spectrum and is so coddled and catered to they have marched multiple times with actual flags with the swastika symbol on them as well as other widely known propaganda imagery shouting about Jewish individuals and being documented on video talking about their hate for Jewish individuals and you want to say this:

Followed by this:

And then try and claim buy hey, man I’m not trying to both sides the issue. Get Real.

There are a lot of things that can be debated and ridiculed and deeply concerned about the stupid shit people who label themselves as liberal say, but modern the mental gymnastics required to try and claim that somehow people arguing about the politics dealing with Israel is somehow at all close to being " more anti-Semitism" than the actual not at all theoretical Nazis climbing into the bed with the political right after you know actually running around with their tiki torches and not at all theoretically but actually storming the Capitol of the USA… There is no logical reason why anyone should believe that.

4161

I am Jewish and I had entire parts of my family wiped out during the holocaust, all to say I’m fairly aware about the event.

I am speaking to my experience, if that is bothsiderism, I dont know what to say except it’s what I’ve seen, heard, and interacted with. In my experience the left has had a preponderance of the examples of anti-Semitism in my personal life.

4162

If you are going to say that. Then don’t say this:

The very least you could do is own the stance you are taking.

4163

Saying it’s more common in my personal experience is not to cast any wider net than that. Not sure why you have a disconnect between general claims and ones own personal experience.

4164

Oh I am very familiar with the people are talking, I’m just saying, don’t really hold me accountable for my claims, but hear me out approach. I just don’t tolerate saying one thing out of one side of your mouth and then trying to backpedal out the other side. There is an entire political spectrum that makes a career out of this approach because it sells very well to idiots. QT3 is not full of idiots.

4165

You can ask me about my claims all you want, in fact, you have been. I’ve answered them. If you want to ask anything about my personal experiences, I’m happy to answer those as well, I outlined one experience I had with a conservative earlier in this thread. So please ask a way if you have questions!

4166

I have no reason to disbelieve your experiences, so I would not call them claims as if they exist to be proven or disproven nor would I ask you to share what you are not already freely and willing to share.

The only reason I’m having this conversation like this is because you are contradicting yourself, and I don’t think it’s exactly genuine that you don’t know or realize that you are.

4167

It’s only a contradiction if you think my conveying my personal experience is the same as me making a general claim. I can have experiences outside the norm and I can recognize that, as I have.

I really appreciate this, thank you for the consideration. Please feel free to ask if you are curious. I only brought them up with the expectation that I may have to explain more.

4168

This is mostly an American thing. Right and Centre-right parties elsewhere in the West are much more equivocal about Israel.

That hasn’t stopped elements of the European left buying into traditional anti-Semitic tropes.