ShivaX
4355
Every Aussie I’ve ever known (which is actually a shitload, insomnia and gaming makes you friends with a lot of Aussies and Kiwis) loves rubbing in that they’re in their summer while I’m freezing my ass off.
I may not fully understand your explanation of “inclusive language”, except insofar as it will naturally overlap with clear communication.
I tell my friends to come over at 4 for the cookout; I don’t tell my friends to come over at 4:00 EST. It’s understood that because we all live practically within walking distance, I don’t need to specify the time zone.
And if I was later relating a funny anecdote about our cookout here on the forum—an international audience, I would just say “So I told everyone to be here at 4, but Mike didn’t show up until 5:30—and get this, he had the hamburger buns!” Again, the time zone isn’t important, this time not because assume you’re all in EST, but because it doesn’t matter for the story that you’re not local. I cannot see the value or “inclusivity” in adding time zones to my anecdote.
But finally, if I’m getting together with college friends from across the country and we’re all flying into LA to meet up, “So you’ll pick us up at 3:00, Mike remember that’s PT” would be appropriate because there’s a reasonable risk of confusion and that’s more specific.
So blah blah blah, if Lara is trying to say you should be specific to avoid confusion where there’s a risk—company emails going to branches in both Brazil and London—sure, don’t say production should increase next summer. That may be all Lara’s saying, I don’t know who she is or anything about her.
But if Lara or anyone else is suggesting you should never use seasonal language because there’s some vaguely defined undesirable societal effect, I would gently push back and say that there is no universally good reason for that.
ShivaX
4357
Given her Twitter history, it’s almost assuredly this.
Which, is just weird, odd and why people made fun of her for it.
There is a degree to which I understand the argument, but I don’t particularly find it compelling.
The joke-ier version of this is the New Zealand maps that are printed upside down.
Since the earth is a sphere in space, theres no particular external reference pont that determines whether “up” is north or south. There’s a lot of scholarship about how many maps (esp. the Mercator projection) have an implicit European bias both in terms of size and centrality. The South Up map orientation calls attention to this bias. The implicit assumption that August = summer = hot also is evidence of this northern hemisphere centric bias.
Now, I’m not entirely convinced by this because I’m not sure what actual harm this assumption causes in casual conversation, especially conversation that is localized to one hemisphere. But, in theory, I can see an argument that using such terminology in a global setting might reinforce a eurocentric bias.
I remember that West Wing episode.
Speaking of West Wing, this seems to be a good instance of Take Out The Garbage Day. Leak it out on memorial day weekend. It’s just nukes and they’ve been doing this for 8 years no problem.
jostly
4362
Clear communication is certainly a part of it, but not all of it. Your examples are great, with the points that there’s no need to add detail if it doesn’t matter for the story, and especially the last one, which I would consider inclusive, since you are clearly making an effort to include Mike. This is usually easier when you are communicating with a group of people you know - it’s easy to imagine what you should add to make it clearer for Mike.
That’s also why inclusive language feels less natural when you do not have a specific target audience, or do not know the exact composition of your audience; and that’s when unconscious biases can muddle things up, like assuming that summer is June - August.
But being precise is just one part of it, as I mentioned earlier. Mike knows you are in the PT timezone. If you forget to mention it, he can probably figure it out on his own. In all likelihood, he’ll get to every one of your meetups on time, even if you never specify the time zone.
What might happen though, is that Mike might start to think that you don’t really care if he makes it there on time or not, since you never make the effort to include his context in your communication. Sure, he’s not going to get offended, it’s no big deal, but every time it happens it eats away a little at his opinion of you.
Clearly, that’s not what you want to happen! That’s why you take a little extra care to include Mike’s perspective when you arrange the meetup.
And that’s why one might choose to make the effort to use inclusive language in general, as well. Not to keep people from being offended, but to communicate clearly and to establish more trust between you and your audience - or at the very least, not chip away at existing trust.
Emphasis on “might” added by me, I think this is where we may disagree. What you described could very well happen. Or if I make sure to include the time zone every single time I tell Mike when to meet us at the airport, he might think I believe he’s incapable of figuring it out for himself or remembering and resent me for that.
I’m not persuaded there’s an external ideal of “inclusivity” in this situation either of could appeal to, it just comes down to Mike and I knowing how to communicate with each other. Knowing the best way to talk to Mike still falls squarely under “clear communication” for me, and does not require the label of inclusive speech.
I may be getting too bogged down in this hypothetical though.
To get back to the context of the original tweet, again I’ll throw in the caveat that Lara may simply be warning against using seasonal language in instances where it interferes with communication, which I would agree with.
But the other reading is that she believes using seasonal language is never appropriate because framing any statement in the context of one hemisphere or the other is exclusive and therefore bad because…because I don’t know why? Who is harmed if I tweet to a global audience “I love summer for a lot of reasons, but especially Christmas with family, it’s the best!”?
Those in the same hemisphere will likely think nothing of it, those in the northern hemisphere will likely be made more consciously aware that I am in a different hemisphere than they are, but there is not a moral, ethical, societal, value to either. It is not inherently harmful to be aware of a difference between us, or inherently wrong to make that statement, so there is no inherent good to be had in rewording it “I love December for a lot of reasons, especially Christmas with family, it’s the best!”
ShivaX
4364
My Facebook interaction today:
Me: “Also I’m telling every Aussie and Kiwi that it’s (soon) summer here. Because fuck them.”
Buddy: “Context?”
Me: posts Tweet
Buddy: “I like to tell them that their toilet flushes in the wrong direction”
Me: “And remind them their entire continent was made by God to murder them.”
jostly
4365
Yeah, my point is that when you know your target audience well, you tend to be automatically inclusive of them, because that’s how most people communicate. You figure out what thing will work best.
It’s when you need to communicate with a larger, or more unknown, audience, that taking care to be inclusive is more important. Given that you still want to minimize frictions between you and your audience.
That’s a pretty wild reading of that tweet, I have to say. Let’s look at what it says.
First off the bat, it’s a “teeny-tiny […] thing”. She’s literally starting by saying it’s no big thing. It can’t be that bad, if it’s a teeny-tiny thing.
Then she continues, “I’ve tried to get better at”. She’s mentioning something she has been trying to get better at. So obviously, it doesn’t come naturally for some people. It’s a practiced skill.
Then an explanation of what she has been practicing, and an example of what that might be. That’s just stating the fact of what she has been practicing.
And finally, an explanation why she is practicing it.
Nowhere do I see how it’s a big bad thing that everyone needs to stop doing. There’s not even a suggestion that anyone else do it. It’s a recounting of something she’s been doing. Why it gets people up in arms, tilting at windmills, is quite beyond me.
jostly
4366
Weird. Because there’s nothing in the tweet suggesting that it’s non-inclusive to tell someone on the opposite hemisphere that it’s season X where you are. If anything, it’s inclusive, because it’s not assuming they are on the same hemisphere as you when you specify “here”.
ShivaX
4367
“I do X because it’s inclusive” has the extremely implied “and if you don’t you’re being bigoted” attached.
Except for the pointing out that what she is doing is inclusive.
Again. “I do a thing because it’s inclusive” means not doing that thing is non-inclusive.
That is the only way to understand that series of words when presented.
We can do all sorts of other examples, but it’s not needed because it’s self-explanitory.
Also I’m not telling Aussies “it’s summer here” I’m likely saying “well, it’s summer in the real world” or something equally insulting because their Aussies and they’ll do the same shit to me in the middle of December.
It’s assumed by… everyone, and I do mean everyone like on the whole planet, that if you say you’re doing something in X season you’re referring to where you live. If anything it smacks of some sort of superiority to assume other people are too stupid to know that imo. That it comes off as smug while also being stupid as hell is just a kicker and something to laugh at.
But it is, by implication, not good, and not neutral. A little bad. She’s making a moral judgement I disagree with. I was trying to just strip her statement down to that point, and ultimately only clarify both her meaning and yours mainly because I think we disagree and I wanted to know more about why, not crucify her over it as unforgivable, or say she’s making a big deal. We (me and you, me and Lara, me and our hypothetical Mike) could be close friends and disagree on this point, but I do disagree.
Same as above, just including it to add that I hope it doesn’t sound I’m up in arms. This is me trying to work through the topic she brought up, here on the forum.
Timex
4369
Ultimately, trying to empathize with other people and consider their viewpoint is good.
Going online and saying, “hey guys, look at how empathetic and considerate I am!” suggests that maybe you are motivated by the wrong thing.
Is that what she was doing? Her Twitter account is private (maybe that’s new if this blew up recently), so it seems she isn’t exactly broadcasting this to everybody in the world.
Also, she appears to run a management consulting company, and in that case, this seems like pretty reasonable advice in the context of an inclusion initiative when dealing with multinational teams. The language of “inclusive thing” and “Q3” suggest that’s the point of the tweet.
I’m mostly upset at how non-inclusive these suggestions of using the month or quarter to describe the time of year is to those who don’t follow the Gregorian calendar.
Menzo
4372
I can’t believe how inconsiderate every TV listing is. These people are monsters.
lol when I see someone telling me --or even a phrase about how stupid liberals are --i just have to recall on event…
I don’t recall any liberals killing capitol police officers on the capitol building that day. And I watched it all from 2 pm to 630 pm – mostly liberals were getting scared shitless along with the rest of you stupid republicans …
I worry for the next generation I really do.
Oh and btw my law partner recently texted me … :“see you wish you had trump… I just paid 60 dollars to fill my tank of gas up”
God I’d pay 5 dollars a gallon to get rid of that tyrant any day.
jostly
4374
Why?
This really confounds me, and ties in with
Why are you reading morality into this? Inclusive language is a communication tool. It can remove ambiguity, and help establish greater trust. It’s definitely a good thing to do, if you want to communicate effectively with a diverse audience. It’s a good thing for government agencies, since their audience tends to be diverse. It’s a good thing for business communication, if your business is acting on a non-local scale.
But to go from that to a moral judgement is… weird, to me. I’m guessing you have some context I’m unaware of.
But okay, I see the point. If you think using, or talking about, inclusive language implies a moral judgement on people who don’t use inclusive language, then I can understand the adverse reaction to that tweet.
But that’s not the case though, is it? It was a useful (yes, I found it useful) tip about something I don’t normally consider. To me, it’s the equivalent of saying “I’ve been practicing X while running, and I think it makes helps me be a more effective runner because of Y”. Does that imply a moral judgement against people who are not exercising?
