Jesus christ man, I never even supported those specific laws. Much less the one in Texas. I’ve supported only one small aspect of licensing in general. Maybe stop to take a breath between double downs.

Again, the original tweet was mostly silly and wrong, but some people don’t care that it was mostly silly and wrong, because they’re invested in the narrative that the tweet was selling, and showing them that it was mostly silly and wrong won’t have any effect on that investment.

Some days the thread should just be renamed “it’s a slow day, please someone, anyone, defend this so I can argue”.

(having a slow day)

You know if the topic had been brought up as “CA’s four year apprenticeship requirement for someone to be a painting contractor is excessive and tends to cause discrimination among Latino laborers who may have worked initially without documentation” this would be a whole other conversation.

As an attempt to dunk on the libs, well, it hasn’t been a great success.

Okay.

Some would call that goalpost shifting, but I’ll just assume you didn’t express yourself well or I misunderstood. Which to be fair, you defended your position like I understood you just fine, imo.

No one held you down and made you keep doing it.

Tribalism is okay when it’s my tribe.

Tribes are stupid.

Dunking on the libs is find when it’s an actual dunk.

I said I was having a slow day ;)

Turning left in right-handed traffic roadways should be banned. Discuss.

Other topics of interest:

Should we outlaw the use of credit scores or derivatives in loans?

GrubHub - the mandate of the masses or post industrial serfdom?

Or maybe most enjoyably

Liberals - they’re always wrong. Here’s an example from Twitter of a random person that doesn’t matter.

Though shift “CA” with “unions” and the conversation would probably also go an entirely different direction.

Terms of Apprenticeship

Training Length of indentureship is four (4) years for the Glazier, Painter and Sign & Display program. Three (3) years for the Drywall Finishers /Taper program.

Minimum hours of related classroom instruction: 160 hours each year and indenture to the Apprenticeship Committee .

Apprentices must complete an Apprentice Project each year.

Apprentices must complete approximately 1,500 hours of on-the-job training annually.

No, I expressed myself just fine.

Same.

And I do apologize if I misunderstood. Which you say I did, so I can only take at face value.

Though I still think any regulatory requirements are silly. Enforce the law breaks, don’t require upfront payment to even do a thing.

And maybe I got a little riled up because I literally know a dude who runs his own business that would be illegal in California. He’s got some issues, probably brain injuries, but he has his own lawncare and landscaping business. He does enough to get by and with the help of people who understand the more complex stuff, like taxes, LLCs and what not. We’re talking his receipts are hand-written on notebook paper.

Dude isn’t really employable as an employee. But he’s making his way and doing fairly well. He can be aggravating at times, but hell he’s paying for his gear and a roof, even with all his issues. In CA he’d probably be homeless or dead. And as much as he can drive you up the wall sometimes, he’s a mostly good dude that’s had a rough time of things.

Anyway, now I’m rambling. Take care.

That depends on the context. Remember www.objectivegamereviews.com ? It was a satirical website that published very shallow game reviews in order to poke fun at consumers who demanded “objectivity”. Good reviewers immerse themselves in a game and describe their personal experience, they do not try to keep a distance from their subject in the name of “objectivity”.

Similarly, game reviews have tried to “rigorously” define 20 point scales among 5 categories to arrive at a comprehensive score on a 100 point scale. I think game journalism is slowly moving away from that model. Routinely using the same set of well-defined metrics is not necessarily the best way to understand something new.

I think there is a growing recognition that some types of “research” are really not much more than journalism, and should be guided by the principles of journalism rather than the principles of hard science. I don’t think the author of this article thinks that biologists and chemists need to throw away “objectivity”. But anthropologists? Ehhh… maybe anthropology is not improved by “objectivity” any more than game reviews. So she may be right to criticize “distance between the researcher and researched” and “the belief that neutrality on a subject is the best way to determine its facts.” She may be right to put scare quotes around “researcher” and “researched”. And she may be right that “following an established research protocol meticulously … does not guarantee trustworthiness or accuracy.”

But in the context of this particular article, she’s being an idiot.

Why? She’s not writing for a chemistry journal.

Looking at the output of the Urban Institute, can you find examples where their work suffered when the researchers did not keep aloof from their subjects? Can you find examples where their work suffered when they took suggestions from the community instead of always defaulting to established research protocols?

If not, then she’s not an idiot and you’re just complaining about semantics.

Objectivity can be a shield to hide biases behind. How and what is defined as objective can also be influenced to achieve certain outcomes.

To take it outside of a political context, lets look at an ‘objective’ review of a consumer good. Specifically the Consumer Reports car review metric. They created a list of attributes, and assign a numeric scale to everything. Each point has the numeric scale defined such that it at least aspires to be ‘objective’. In that sense a car scoring a 84 is better than one scoring 76.

And there is a bunch of categories. But what metrics get measured are decidedly not objective. It presents a certain bias in what is important. By choosing what metrics to use, and how many to use, it influences the final scoring. To be more specific they use a single category for things like emissions and environmental factors, but have half a dozen for interior trim and finish. So this ‘objective’ review heavily favors luxury vehicles, and especially SUVs, over economic cars. Because to the scoring metric better speakers, leather seats, high end center console panels, etc far outweigh things like fuel efficiency. Massively so. So this score presents a very specific and certain editorial perspective, and masks it behind a single ‘objective’ numeric score. One they say ‘we have clearly defined the criteria on what is important, and measure everything equitably, and so our score is that one car is objectively better than the other’.

But the fact is, for me, those priorities are flipped. I don’t give two shits about some of the frills, but I 100% care deeply about the cost of maintenance and fuel efficiency. But I am a sophisticated and knowledgeable enough person to see the scores for what they are. I can break down the criteria and see how they overweight certain factors, and underweight others. I can see how one car with a higher rating would be, to me, the inferior vehicle for what I care about.

So objectivity, as it is presented, is a myth. It can be, and usually is, good to assess your priors and strive to remain neutral to the data before drawing conclusions. To strive for objectivity when possible. However to claim absolute objectivity can be a deeply damaging and incorrect thing. Because how objectivity is defined can hide pernicious and persistent biases, so much more to address because those using them are presenting this façade of objectivity. And too often it creates feedback loops. Something like the long standing arguments about how black people feel pain differently, or how hospitals and doctors would be less likely to prescribe pain medications to a black patient exhibiting the same symptoms as a white one, in the name of some ‘objective’ notions about how different groups experience pain, or how certain groups are more likely to be looking to abuse pain killers.

No, she’s definitely still an idiot.

Did you read what she actually wrote?

Yes, I literally quoted it.

So again, do you think she’s wrong that sometimes researchers shouldn’t be aloof from their subjects? Or do you think she’s wrong that sometimes researchers should allow communities to influence their methods?

Or are you just grumpy about the terminology she used for those two concepts?

It doesn’t look like you did, but maybe you did somewhere else.

So, just to be clear, this statement:

Harmful values and practices include the following:

Objectivity. This is the distance between the “researcher” and “researched.” It is based on the belief that neutrality on a subject is the best way to determine its facts. Objectivity allows researchers, intentions aside, to define themselves as experts without learning from people with lived experience. Objectivity also gives researchers grounds to claim they have no motives or biases in their work. Racism, sexism, classism, and ableism permeate US institutions and systems, which, in turn, allows for research that reproduces or creates racist stereotypes and reinforces societal power differences between who generates information (white cisgender people) and who is a subject (Black, Indigenous, and other people of color at the margins of class and gender). At best, objectivity curbs how impactful research can be, and, at worst, it irrevocably harms a community.

You think that statement is correct.

I gotta be honest here, I doubted earlier today that we were gonna get here on this one, but here we are!

Let’s break this down.

Harmful values and practices include the following: Objectivity. This is the distance between the “researcher” and “researched.”

Is it true that sometimes it is harmful for researchers to keep distant from their subjects? Yes, I think so, at least in the sort of research that her organization performs. Distance can produce a rather shallow understanding, and the goal of science is understanding.

Objectivity allows researchers, intentions aside, to define themselves as experts without learning from people with lived experience.

Is it bad when someone defines themselves as experts when they have no direct experience with their subject? Sometimes, yes. If someone on TV called themselves an “expert” on the Middle East but never visited the Middle East or even spoke to someone from the Middle East, I think that would be quite bad. If someone conducted research on problems of the inner city without bothering to set foot outside their suburban home, I think their work might suffer.

Racism, sexism, classism, and ableism permeate US institutions and systems,

Well, that’s self-evident.

allows for research that reproduces or creates racist stereotypes

Can bad research reinforce racism? Do I even need to ask?

reinforces societal power differences between who generates information (white cisgender people) and who is a subject (Black, Indigenous, and other people of color at the margins of class and gender).

I don’t really know what this means, but it’s certainly true that scientists are often privileged compared to their subjects, which has led to numerous ethical lapses.

At best, objectivity curbs how impactful research can be, and, at worst, it irrevocably harms a community.

Yes, shallow research is less impactful. And bad research can be harmful.

The problem is the people responsible for that research still expect the deference to their findings and government funding accorded to academics, while acting like journalists.

Oh ye of little faith.

Who cares what they expect? Everyone is allowed to dream big, but in reality they will never get as much funding as the NIH.

Honestly, I think if you find/replace “objectivity” with the definition she gives (ie “distance”), the paragraph is unremarkable:

Harmful values and practices include the following: Distance between the “researcher” and “researched.” It is based on the belief that neutrality on a subject is the best way to determine its facts. Distance allows researchers, intentions aside, to define themselves as experts without learning from people with lived experience. Distance also gives researchers grounds to claim they have no motives or biases in their work. Racism, sexism, classism, and ableism permeate US institutions and systems, which, in turn, allows for research that reproduces or creates racist stereotypes and reinforces societal power differences between who generates information (white cisgender people) and who is a subject (Black, Indigenous, and other people of color at the margins of class and gender). At best, distance curbs how impactful research can be, and, at worst, it irrevocably harms a community.