5100

You can’t comprehend the concept of someone unsure of what pronoun to have , because they’re questioning, or because they’re insecure as hell about whether they can succeed in a transition?

I’ve never run into a no pronoun person, and in some of my spots on the internet, I’ve run into neopronoun users (usually are insufferable though)

5101

Well, I believe that explainer included an example of some dude who didn’t use pronouns.

So just pick one, man. You can just pick another one later if you want.

The idea of making up some new word, or saying don’t use any words, is just weird… and I don’t see how it even helps anything, even for that person.

I can totally understand how if someone were to intentionally use the wrong pronoun for you, that could be cruel and demeaning… but if you aren’t even sure what pronoun you want, then who cares?

The he/they kind of falls into this too, as you described it as some kind of situation where you don’t know which you want? But then it doesn’t really matter if you use he, right? It’s kind of an expression of non-preference at that point.

5102

One thing I try to remind myself to have some empathy about is the way dissonance between your internal self and society’s baseline can affect a person.

On a much less intense level, whenever I’ve quit drinking for a period, it becomes super obvious how much American culture overall expects you to drink, like, all the time. The advertising is endemic. Social expectations (bring a bottle of wine to dinner, have a beer watching the game) are everywhere.

And drinking or teetotaling is a vastly lesser part of (hopefully) anyone’s identity than their internal view of what gender identity they feel fits them best.

Gender…shit. Soon as we had our first kid, the way literally everything about our society rams heavily gendered everything down your throat became painfully obvious and uncomfortable for us, and we fit quite neatly into traditional gender roles.

It’s really easy and intuitive to handwave away how much it affects a gender-nonconforming person’s existence and just say, “Look, pick one and let’s move on already!” That’s pretty shitty, IMO, and we could all do to have a little more empathy for our fellow humans.

That’s basically how I get to “happy to use ‘they’ as a singular pronoun, even if it’s awkward.”

That said, I suspect that the neopronoun folks @Alstein has referenced are along the lines of some people I’ve encountered in my own life who make their gender identity their whole identity. That has tracked pretty well, in my experience, with extreme sensitivity to language and general insufferability. And expecting literally every other English-speaker on the planet to change the way they construct sentences to accommodate your neopronoun or your demand to never be referred to by a pronoun? That’s you being an attention-seeking selfish baby, not proudly living your authentic life, sorry. I just can’t get there.

5103

Using “they” is fine for me.

Thea idea of abandoning all pronouns entirely is not, for the reason you state here:

It’s performative bullshit.

5104

I thought the singular use of they wasn’t new. Just unused for a few decades. And new that it applies to nonbinary.

5105

Yes, I know a few folks like that. Adam hit it on the nose. I look at those folks as cautionary tales. My first experience with something like this was back when I was 19, and I ran into someone who identified as a white dragon. (19 was also my first experience with someone trans, and well, that led to a long, winding road)

5106

Using they as a singular pronoun is common enough among normal people, despite it being taught by my english teacher as incorrect in highschool.

5107

If someone wants to be called something weird, and they are good natured about it I’m happy to make a good faith attempt to call them what they want. If they are dicks about it what I call them becomes irrelevant because I’m not going to associate with that person anymore in the first place. Not because of their weird name or pronoun, but because they are being a dick.

I mean if you assume anyone making such a request is automatically going to be a dick about it I can understand the reluctance. However then the issue kinda becomes that assumption.

There’s been so much verbiage directed against one line in an inclusive message based on hypothetical scenarios.

5108

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Generic or ambiguous singular they–i.e. “Someone is outside. They’re standing on the porch.”–has been in wide use for centuries. Specific singular they–i.e. “Max is outside. They’re standing on the porch.”–has been in wide use for less than a decade.

Assholes are assholes. The problem is generalizing that statement: “some people are assholes, therefore neopronouns are performative bullshit.” If I met someone that asked me to use a weird pronoun (or no pronoun), I’d just do it. No skin off my nose. If I mess up and they yell at me, maybe they’re an asshole, maybe they’re just having a rough time, whatevs. I’ll either walk away or deal. Not sure why this is a thing. I think all bumper stickers are performative bullshit, but I don’t go on rants about them. As long as they’re not on my car, what do I care?

5109

I’ve only had one acquaintance who wanted to be referred to as they/them. By golly they were weird, but they were never a dick about the pronoun thing. In fact, they didn’t even bring it up. The friend I met them through mentioned it when I asked something like “what does she…” and it never really came up again. So I guess I don’t reflexively think people with pronoun preferences are only doing so to be attention whores about it.

5110

Makes sense.

5111

The main change there is not the use of “they” when a definite gender is present, but that the subject though known may still be ungendered. From the perspective of people who consider themselves ungendered it’s proper grammar since it follows the rule that if the subject is ungendered you use they.

5112

I wonder if one day we’ll use they for inanimate objects that we often gender. Like Ships.

5113

Exactly right. I was reading along and mentally composing this same thought. And I think this cuts pretty deeply to the heart of a ton of issues… people making up shit to get angry and self-righteous about. The GOP is what it is because of this complete failure of empathy.

Yep to this too. Missing the forest for the trees. It’s a shame the way humans zero in on the negative and then amplify it.

5114

Why would you do it? It’s asking you to treat them in a fashion that is unique compared to every other person you deal with. You’d need to change the way you use the English language.

Just because they want it?

5115

Y… yes? Because why wouldn’t I? It costs me literally nothing to refer to someone they way they want to be referred to.

5116

The reason why I wouldn’t, is because it serves no purpose. It requires me treat them an in a unique fashion, different from every other person I deal with. That requires some additional expenditure of effort, that frankly, they do not merit. They are not in fact special. They merit no additional expenditure of effort above and beyond everyone else. They do not deserve to hold that degree of power over me.

If you want to be male, that’s cool, you’re he. If you want to be female, that’s cool, you’re she. If you want to be something else, that’s cool, you’re they. Those are the options, and they apply to everyone.

You don’t get to make up your own little rules, and then expect everyone else in the world to bow to your ego and follow along with you.

It’s performative bullshit. It’s absolutely nothing more than someone wanting to be recognized as a special snowflake, and be the center of attention.

Again, you can choose to play along with their game, that’s fine. It’s your choice. But I definitely will not. As you yourself have said, it’s unlikely that I’d have to, because only a very select group of assholes would try to impose such rules on others anyway, and I’d most likely just choose not to associate with them at all.

5117

If I met this imaginary person and then discovered this weird request, I would not hesitate to ask them (in a good-natured way) wtf is that about?? Chances are the answer wouldn’t convince me that I need to make those language accommodations. But maybe that person has a convincing enough reason that I give it a try. Or I just talk around it. Maybe that person would be cool with me not doing it. Maybe that relationship ends there. Maybe it’s the start of something magical.

WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS

5118

Thus Spake Timex.

Yeah, I guess we’re not the same. I tend to make unique accommodations in nearly every different social situation. I’m polite but distant to the grocery checker, a bit forced jovial with the barista, don’t talk about religion with my uncle, don’t swear around my mom, laugh at my boss’s dumb jokes, tell dirty jokes to my brother, engage in pillowtalk with my partner. I mean I have some hard-and-fast rules like “avoid physical violence”, but the threshold for social accommodation is way above non-obvious pronoun usage. I have to work waaayyy harder than that to keep from rolling my eyes when my dad talks about creationism.

5119

And what’s the deal with people with hyphenated last names!? I mean one last name isn’t good enough for them?! I’ve got to make the extra effort of writing two names? And don’t even get me started on those people with three or more hyphenated last name! Do they think I have all day? Just pick one already!