Lost

[JD]

So after the treatment they have to take him back to Dharma, right? And that’s when Richard starts appearing to him?

No, it’s already been established that Richard had already talked to Ben before that. That was the reason for delivering sandwiches to Sayid.

I wonder if they’ll explain why Richard looked like a hobo when he and Ben met in the woods for the first time. He had his typical look in the 50s, in 1974 and in 1977.

So Charles Widmore and Ellie (Faraday?) have contact with the Other’s in 1977.

Well, Widmore was already there on 1955 and didn’t leave the island until (old) Ben tricked him into doing that. That was more than 20 years ago or so in the timeline, IIRC.

As for the episode itself - certainly the weakest one in a while, but no surprise since it was about Kate. So giving Aaron to his grandma was what she made such a big fuss about when she made Jack promise that he’ll never ask about what happened to him? Whoopdeedoo.

[XPav]

Is it true that Lostpedia is on its way out* while we’ve still got five episodes and another season yet to go?

No. That’s Wikia Search which is going away.

[Nawid_A]

Best Kate episode in a LONG time. 4 years actually. And damn, has this season been good. Best damn show on TV.

[The_Other_Guy1]

On the Egyptian thingy… do you think it’s a coincidence that there are not only a bunch of Egyptian themed names and objects floating around (R.A., Horus, the hieroglyphs, the temple and statue, Anubis/Cerebus/Smoke monster, etc), but also Hebrew/biblical? Ie, Jacob, Aaron, Daniel first and foremost, I guess “Christian Shephard” could sort of loosely fit as well.

Jacob and Aaron are pretty important Old Testament figures, especically concerning Egypt. It is Jacob’s 12 children who move the Israelites to Egypt, after all. And of course Aaron is Moses’ brother, the High Priest of God, and one of the main figures in the Exodus from Egypt (and mouthpiece of Moses). It’s about as close to evoking Moses as you can get without hitting people over the head by naming him Moses, I would guess.

How would this tie together? The Others (Egyptians) are enslaving Jacob and his people (Hebrews)? Aaron will be the key to their deliverance? Maybe I’m reading too much into it. I’m not sure how you make the leap from that theme to Age of Enlightenment philosophers… And also there are elements of other religions as well (Dharma, the Bagua symbol, Namaste, Hindu world wheel, Apollo bars, etc).

I actually worry that I’m reading too much into it as well, but yeah I agree with you–I think there very well be something there about the Egyptians and Jacob and Aaron and Christian and Jack. In fact, I wonder if–although I think they play pretty fast and loose with their literary references–seeing Phil Dick’s Valis pop up (more than?) once is a tip to that novel’s idea of a struggle outside time, a battle that never ended. Instead of the Romans and the first Christians inside the Black Iron Prison of occluded history, it’s Egyptians and the last Hebrews (and the first Christians) on the Island, some temple to Anubis that’s become the out-of-time portal between life and death. Or, y’know, stuff.

[Andrew_Mayer]

Time travel is very ironic, since it ends up being Sayid and Jack’s actions that made Ben an Other.

[Senjak]

Time travel is very ironic, since it ends up being Sayid and Jack’s actions that made Ben an Other.

I think this could have worked well, but it was poorly executed. Daniel’s repeated assertions that they cannot change the past have sucked the dramatic tension out of most of the 1977 scenes, because he’s telling us that nothing is at stake.

Assuming Daniel’s right and nobody (except maybe Desmond) can change the past, then adult Ben was always going to be an Other (and creepy-evil) and the actions of Sayid, Jack etc are irrelevant to that eventual outcome, though they may have altered the specific path Ben takes to reach his adult creepy-evil Other state.

If we’re expected to see this as a situation where Sayid and Jack made choices which created Ben, they need different time travel rules.

[TheTrunkDr]

I think this could have worked well, but it was poorly executed. Daniel’s repeated assertions that they cannot change the past have sucked the dramatic tension out of most of the 1977 scenes, because he’s telling us that nothing is at stake.

Assuming Daniel’s right and nobody (except maybe Desmond) can change the past, then adult Ben was always going to be an Other (and creepy-evil) and the actions of Sayid, Jack etc are irrelevant to that eventual outcome, though they may have altered the specific path Ben takes to reach his adult creepy-evil Other state.

If we’re expected to see this as a situation where Sayid and Jack made choices which created Ben, they need different time travel rules.

I think the idea is that this isn’t an alteration of the past just viewing what already happened from the O6’s point of view. I think the idea is that it’s essentially back story about what already happened.

[zengonzo]

The future is already written, as well. Seeing how it comes to be is the interesting part.

[seventimessix]

I think this could have worked well, but it was poorly executed. Daniel’s repeated assertions that they cannot change the past have sucked the dramatic tension out of most of the 1977 scenes, because he’s telling us that nothing is at stake.

Assuming Daniel’s right and nobody (except maybe Desmond) can change the past, then adult Ben was always going to be an Other (and creepy-evil) and the actions of Sayid, Jack etc are irrelevant to that eventual outcome, though they may have altered the specific path Ben takes to reach his adult creepy-evil Other state.

If we’re expected to see this as a situation where Sayid and Jack made choices which created Ben, they need different time travel rules.

I looked at what happened a little differently. Jack and Sayid assumed they could change the future and tried to stop little Ben from becoming evil Ben. Instead they caused exactly what they hated. I think that just like the Island not allowing Michael to kill himself, the Island would make Ben into the evil villain in any situation.

The show has made the Island into much more than the setting of the show; it’s the force that drives everything. So whether or not Jack and Sayid like it, Ben has to become evil and their nemesis because the Island needs them to have that nemesis. Everyone who ended up on the Island is there for a reason, and try as they might to change that there’s something very important they all have to do.

[Brian_Seiler]

If we’re expected to see this as a situation where Sayid and Jack made choices which created Ben, they need different time travel rules.

I agree with others that this might be missing the point a little bit. The timeline that we’ve seen is the timeline that is, but while we know the broad strokes (i.e. the statue totally fell down) we don’t know the details (i.e. what the chuffing hell is it a statue of? Who built it?). The interesting thing is supposed to be how the events of the present-past shape the world that we know exists in the future. The entertaining here is pretty much the same thing as what’s entertaining in the film 300 - you KNOW how everything turns out, but you’re tuning in to watch how those things came to be and hear stories that you haven’t heard before.

[Senjak]

I looked at what happened a little differently. Jack and Sayid assumed they could change the future and tried to stop little Ben from becoming evil Ben. Instead they caused exactly what they hated. I think that just like the Island not allowing Michael to kill himself, the Island would make Ben into the evil villain in any situation.

The show has made the Island into much more than the setting of the show; it’s the force that drives everything. So whether or not Jack and Sayid like it, Ben has to become evil and their nemesis because the Island needs them to have that nemesis. Everyone who ended up on the Island is there for a reason, and try as they might to change that there’s something very important they all have to do.

I like this idea much better than a self-correcting timeline. The Island as an active participant with its own agenda is at lot more interesting interpretation.

Is Richard a manifestation of the Island’s will, or just a guy who arrived a long time ago? Actually, the same question applies to the dead people who show up from time to time. Is the ghost of Jack’s dad guiding people, or is the Island using his face? I haven’t seen Season 3 so if they gave a clear answer to those questions back then i missed it.

[Brian_Seiler]

Is Richard a manifestation?

Probably not, but not confirmed one way or the other. All signs point to him being a flesh-and-blood thing that serves as a counterpoint to the current established leader of The Others at any given time.

the dead people who show up from time to time

No clear answer on this one. Christian, at least, seem to be reanimated in some way - possibly as himself, possibly as The Island / Jacob, or maybe as some third thing - but the other ghosts and visions seem to be non-material. The producers have indicated that they are probably things that are caused by The Island, either intentionally or as a result of exposure to it. It’s possible that some of them might be the smoke monster.

[Senjak]

I agree with others that this might be missing the point a little bit. The timeline that we’ve seen is the timeline that is, but while we know the broad strokes (i.e. the statue totally fell down) we don’t know the details (i.e. what the chuffing hell is it a statue of? Who built it?). The interesting thing is supposed to be how the events of the present-past shape the world that we know exists in the future. The entertaining here is pretty much the same thing as what’s entertaining in the film 300 - you KNOW how everything turns out, but you’re tuning in to watch how those things came to be and hear stories that you haven’t heard before.

I agree in principle that seeing the specifics of how things happened can be interesting, which is why I’ve enjoyed the flashback/flashforward intensive structure of the show. In a flashback the events taking place matter to the people experiencing them; my problem with sending people to the past and saying they can’t change anything is that it dissociates the characters from the events around them.

Now that I think about it, Jack has become very passive, and Daniel seemed to be heading in the direction of crazy over this exact issue, so maybe the writers did this intentionally.

[Coca_Cola_Zero]

I think this could have worked well, but it was poorly executed. Daniel’s repeated assertions that they cannot change the past have sucked the dramatic tension out of most of the 1977 scenes, because he’s telling us that nothing is at stake.

There are still things at stake for the continued survival of the time travelling characters, though. They even went out of their way to point this out in the Miles/Hurley conversation (Miles telling Hurley they can die).

So the future people can still die in 1977, and that brings some tension. I suspect they intend to kill at least one of them off, probably Miles. Maybe they’ll float that as the explaination of how he can talk to dead people, because throughout most of his life, he (well, a future version of himself) was dead too.

[Brian_Seiler]

Not Miles. Somebody is rumored to die, but not Miles. I will not reveal this information unless I am specifically invited to do so, because Lost spoilers will get me killed via letterbomb. Also, I kind of doubt that the spoiler is true.

[DT1]

Yeah, I believe it was about 80 pages back that it was agreed that spoilers were bad. Wild conjecture is fine, though.

[Andrew_Mayer]

The show has made the Island into much more than the setting of the show; it’s the force that drives everything. So whether or not Jack and Sayid like it, Ben has to become evil and their nemesis because the Island needs them to have that nemesis. Everyone who ended up on the Island is there for a reason, and try as they might to change that there’s something very important they all have to do.

Unless Ben isn’t evil.

Also, we don’t know what Ben’s true motivation is, but if Jack had helped him that would have changed everything that happened between them.

He couldn’t have changed their destiny, but he could have effected what it might turn out to be…

[Mookee]

Sweet lord, tonight’s episode was great. I love this show.

[Funkman]

Any interactions between Locke and Ben are almost automatically the best thing about the show. So great.

I liked that this episode sort of wrapped up some story lines and then set up some bizarre new ones. What is the deal with the new people on the beach?

[Brinstil]

Sweet lord, tonight’s episode was great. I love this show.

Seconded. I loved Ben describing to Sun how Locke walking around the island scares the crap out of him.