5301

Couldnt it be that the timeline branched in 1977, based on whether Juliet managed to get the bomb to explode before the “incident”?

In one universe, the incident occurred, throwing all the 1977 characters back to the present.

In the other, the bomb exploded, destroying (sinking?) the island, and altering the timeline in the way that Slainte mentioned above.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that this was a Schrödinger’s cat situation writ large. Both universes are probable outcomes.

5302

I won’t be shocked if it didn’t sink The Island. The world doesn’t seem quite devastated enough to be global warming at work or some other gigantic butterfly effect change, but given the fact that they’ve at least tried to stay within shouting distance of science, sinking an island is kind of almost impossible to do. I am forced to wonder what the geopolitical ramifications of setting off a nuclear test in the 1970s in the South Pacific would be, though.

5303

Considering the island is capable of moving without much environmental damage, I think sinking it is probably trivial. I mean, we dont even know if the thing is actually attached to the seafloor.

If it is some power source keeping it moving/floating/there, then setting off a hydrogen bomb at the source of the incident could easily have disrupted that and sunk it.

5304

Just been thinking about the Desmond encounter on the Plane…

Charles Widmore was on the island when the bomb went off. If Charles died that means Penny was never born. If Penny was never born that means Desmond had no reason to train for the race around the world. If Desmond never trained then he should have never met Jack…

5305

Miles was already born and was evacuated off the island with his mother and lots of other “non-essential” Dharma people right before the incident. I’d guess that his ability is from being on the island at a young age. Faraday is quite a different puzzle since his own mother killed him, but I think he too was evacuated.

5306

They seemed to be doing a lot of awkward poses and gawps - I’m not sure if that was for dramatic effect, or to imply that there are resonances of the other world.

Of course, only Jack seemed subject to it, so I guess we should assume it was merely for our benefit.

5307

Bingo. That’s the key to the season right there.

5308

I forgot about baby Miles, so yeah, scratch that.

It is interesting how Desmond only appeared on the plane as it was flying over the sunken island (at least that was implied by the sequence of events in the first few minutes).

As for sinking the island: they’ve already established that the island is mobile through time/space, and that there was a serious magnetic field at work in/near the Swan station. It’s not unreasonable to think that the island (if it’s even a real island) wasn’t connected to the sea floor, but perhaps held in place by the magnetic field. Remove the magnetic field (with the detonation of the bomb) and the island simply sinks to the sea floor?

5309

Depends, how old is Penny? If she was born before 1977 (this seems perfectly reasonable, making her 30 in 2007) then she could be alive and well and wasn’t Widmore banished from the island before 1977?

I think there’s some sort of cross over between the two worlds. Juliet’s dying words were “it worked” and Jack remembering Desmond seems like he’s somehow subconsciously aware that something is amiss.

5310

Jack had actually met Desmond before the flight, so he could have just been remembering that.

5311

True but even so, Widmore gone would remove the motivation to win a race around the world.

5312

Because Desmond was training for his race around the world which he might not have had to do. Possibly. Depends on what happened with the whole Penny situation.

5313

That was my thought.

5314

We don’t know that the bomb actually exploded, with a mushroom cloud and so on. Possibly it interacted in some way with the energy field, somehow sinking the island but not flattening the village or causing an international incident. That would also mean that some of the people on the island in 1977 might have survived in that timeline.

I want to know how Juliet knew “it worked.”

5315

Could be - it will revolve around what The Island is made of after all. If they do a podcast this week, how hard they run away from the adjective “sunken” will probably indicate what they’re angling for. I think that this whole “unintended consequences” theme is going to be a major deal for the season, though.

5316

Maybe.

5317

Though it seems probable that Anti-Jacob (sorry, I don’t care for “Blackie”) is the smoke monster, there’s always a chance that he is a smoke monster. Though, certainly telling Ben to do what Locke (UnLocke, actually Anti-Jacob) says seems consistent with Anti-Jacob in his UnLocke avatar manipulation (I was kinda wondering why it would give that request).

The two timelines seem to be pretty distinct. In 1977, the Losties blew up the Swan site at the moment the energy pulse was released, sinking the island and killing everyone left on it at that point (hence the underwater shots of the island and Dharmatown preserved as it was in 1977). This means nothing that happened post-1977 to the Losties would have happened the same way. In fact, several people likely ceased to exist, including Miles since his pops was on the island when the bomb went off. This may help explain Miles ability in the current timeline. One would presume Faraday also ceased to exist, as his mom was also on the island at the time I believe (she led them to the bomb). In any event, the new 2004 timeline now appears to be “Island Influence Free since 1977”. Don’t know where they’ll go with it, but one must assume that it has some sort of effect on the conflict between Jacob and Blackie.

Baby Miles and his mom just left the island before the explosion, so Miles can still be around in Bomb-Branching Present. Hawking and Widmore, should both be gone, and thus Penny and Faraday (though it never seems to get mentioned that Faraday and Penny are at least half-siblings). For that matter, no Ben, no Jacob, no Anti-Jacob.

Meanwhile, in our 2007 (present day) timeline, we have all hell breaking loose as Blackie smells freedom (or maybe that smell is all those unwashed Losties suddenly back from 1977, seriously take a dip in the magic pool while you’re all just sitting around, please) and the Templetons are preparing for a siege. But why, if setting off the bomb was supposed to be a reboot, are the Losties and everyone else still here? That’s the big question. No real answers were given last night. I like the theories presented above that somehow the 2004 timeline is corrupted and the 2007 Losties need to make things right somehow. I predict making it right will involve both destroying Blackie and either destorying the island or untethering it from our reality altogether.

I think the answers were already given by Faraday, when he talked about alternating branching futures as a possibility.

One thing that really stood out for me last night after watching both the hour-long “catch-up” show and the premiere was that much of the middle of LOST was simply edited out of existence. The catch-up show made ZERO mention of Michael, Walt or the tail section people. The episode iteself also ignored Michael and Walt as well as barely touching on tail section people (Bernard actually ascended from being a tail secton person to being a true LOSTie by virtue of making it back alive from the restroom). It’s like the producers just want you to forget all about that silly detour with those tail section folks. Also conspicuously absent in the episode was Claire, at least right up until the taxi scene. Why make such a fuss about showing everyone on the plane (even Arnst and Frogurt) but skipping over Claire?

So it will be a surprise when we see her in the taxi.

edit OK, the stewardess and the kids were tail section people. I assume they got their due because “What happened to the children?” is probably one of the Top 10 LOST Unanswered Questions of all time. I bet we barely see them from here on out.

I think the children will be given a little more coverage to tie them up neater than simply mentioning them in passing.

5318

There may be something true here, but the main point is that it is JACOB who has caused the bomb exploding and the new 2004 timeline to exist.

This may lead somewhere if things are considered that way. We do not even know that anti-Jacob is aware that his timeline (the 2007) is now somewhat secondary.

Jacob at this point is apparently successful. Anti-Jacob may be the one tricked and now trapped not in the island, but in the surrogate timeline.

EDIT: It’s also possible that the two timelines will be personalized: Jacobs has the “white” 2004 no-crash timeline, while anti-Jacobs has the “black” standard timeline where he’s now free.

Also, let’s work with two archetypes. Jacobs represents white and progress made of men, and the will of men to alter destiny and have a role, and decide their own life and try in spite of all misery and failure and whatever. It’s a kind of positive, merciful drive that often fails but always tries.

Anti-Jacobs represents wild nature. Unmerciful, cruel. That doesn’t tolerate men messing up. That wants the island untouched, and wants it back, away from men. That also represents destiny as a self correcting fixed thing that has its own survival as first priority.

5319

[U]Musings of a Monster Smoking Man*

[/U](just to be clear on terminology - I’m referring to Anti-Jacob as the overall persona, and the various other incarnations as avatars of anti-Jacob, so for example, Apparition-Walt is Anti-Jacob in a specific incarnation)

Okay, Anti-Jacob is the smoke monster, and the smoke monster seems to be able to take on forms and tap into peoples memories. Anti-Jacob as UnLocke clearly knows everything Locke does, down to his final thought before he dies. And he can seem to do this even though the person is already dead. It would explain the ghostly Christian wandering about the island while having his full memories. Some of this was revealed when Mr. Eko talks to what appears to be his dead brother, but Dead Brother denies he is actually Dead Brother (and thus the doppelganger reveals itself for what it is, at least to some degree). It also explains Walt appearing and manipulating Locke, who was about to kill himself in the Dharma death-pit. And it would seem that the forms are probably not limited to humanoid (Kate’s horse). All these apparitions appear now to be manipulations, and consistent with an Anti-Jacob fiendish plot.

Is the Man in Black just another avatar, or a true human form? Can he be killed in that form? And are the essential natures of Jacob similar or dissimilar? More specifically, just because Anti-Jacob has powers beyond those of mortal man, does Jacob, and are they the same in nature or different? His body seems to have left no traces in the fire, yet he identifies himself later as really dead. Though others seem to think he is now UnSayid, that would leave the real Sayid’s body still laying there, and not revived, which either argues in favor of being different in nature, or more likely, that’s really Sayid (“there’s dead and mostly dead”).

I would say their natures are different, since Jacob can leave the island, and yet Anti-Jacob could not. And even in smoke monster form, Anti-Jacob seems to be able to be bound by “magical” ashes and the sonic barrier fence. How Jacob will attempt to stymie Anti-Jacob from beyond death and what his true nature is remains to be seen. I’ll be glued to screen, no doubt.

*With apologies to the X-Files conspiracy episode “Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man” wherein the true nature and background of that character is revealed

5320

Doubtful. Remember, Ben could never see Jacob until the confrontation at the statue’s foot. And his interventions that we’ve seen have been pretty direct, talking to people.

No. He was banished by Ben, sometime after the December 1992 purge of Dharma.

If the Others had a way to and from the island before the Dharma purge, Widmore could have fathered Penny before the bomb goes off. He arrived in 54, exiled in 1992/blown up in 1977 (assuming no rescue). Can’t remember if he made his wealth or inherited. I’m thinking he needs a travel method if he earned it.

Hmm, did Eloise build the lighthouse, or was it found?

Miles’ evacuation means we’ll also see Charlotte again I assume.

Nor Horace, Roger Workman, Phil, Radzinsky, Prof. Chang, nor any of Richard’s crew.

People who are still alive: Locke’s Dad, Naomi, Ana Lucia, Rousseau, Alex, Nadia, Keamy. And presumably Mikhail, Friendly, Ethan, Picket, Colleen, Bea, most of Ben’s crew.

Yeah. I’m concerned the writers might go too far changing the pre-2004 past of characters to make to get themselves out of tricky painting in corners. If they try to stick to what happened before, Penny would be in charge of the Widmore business, still have met Desmond as he left the monastery, they get together but his drinking ruins it. And Desmond will have joined the Royal Scots, and then started having troubles. According to Lostpedia, his consciousness started time travelling from 1996 (in the army) to Dec. 24, 2004 (just a few months after our new timeline). So, lots of wiggle room for the writers there. They just need to get him out of the army and to Australia with a reason go to LA.

I’m also curious of the new timeline will be shown in accelerated fasion, moving quickly along, to get it to sync up with older timeline, in late 2007, where hilarity would, no doubt, ensue.