Two things I gathered. First, Jacob is looking for the next guardian he does this by both going out into the world and by bringing people to him. Second, while Smokey isn’t his real brother I believe Jacob still has some sort of bond with him. Smokey believes (as Jacob’s brother did) that people are basically evil and Jacob believes they’re basically good and wants to prove that to Smokey/his brother.

It’s Jacob who does the whole thing, while it’s MiB who would want to bring in other men so that he could eventually escape.

I don’t think that’s the case. I think Smokey would prefer not to have people come to the island and people aren’t necessary for his escape. I’m pretty sure the only thing Smokey needs to escape the island is for the guardian and all candidates to be dead. Since it seems he’s not able to kill them himself he has no choice but to manipulate people to do it for him.

The thing that kills me about this fucking episode is that we know literally nothing more after it than we did before it.

OK, we do know that Jacob (who’s dead) was apparently a big mama’s boy. There’s that.

We know that Smokey came out of a hole in the ground. Said hole used to have lots of light in it. There’s that.

We know that the form Smokey assumed in the season 5 finale, while talking to Jacob on the beach, was an assumed form (in the same way that it assumed Locke’s form).

Oh, and the big reveal - the “Adam and Eve” corpses that nobody remembers or cares about belonged to C.J. Craig and Jacob’s brother. Hurrah for answering questions! :(

At the end of the day, the stuff we learned from this episode was pointless. It doesn’t bring us any closer to resolution, or to understanding. It was filler - pure, garbage filler. And these writers are honestly complaining that they can’t wrap everything up because they don’t have time? Protip: If you’re running short on time, don’t waste 20% of the final 5 hours of your fucking show!

I wonder if she invoked Smokey somehow, though. that level of destruction was pretty epic.

Maybe she was “a” smokey… As pointed out above, she did get stabbed before he could speak; and she seemed to say going in the cave was a fate worse than death, which would lead her to thank her killer for releasing her. It would also explain a little her reticence to say where she came from.

Hoooooooooold on a minute. This is an interesting thought.

So if Fake Mom was Smokey - which certainly seems to make sense given her general killing abilities - then she was trying to manipulate the two boys into releasing her in the first place. Maybe tainting the glowy hole* was just the first step to getting off the island.

  • I’m totally using “Tainting The Glowy Hole” as the title of my first album.

Yeah, she definitely went superhuman on their asses. Aside from filling in the entire well they dug, she murdered every single one of them and burned their camp, scorched earth-style, before Jacob’s brother was able to regain consciousness. I definitely got a Smokey vibe from that.

I’m also not seeing where people are getting that Jacob’s brother felt that all people were inherently evil. Smokey in the brother’s form, yes. But when Jacob asks him about them, he says something to the effect that they’re selfish, scheming, etc, but never calls them evil. He lived amongst them for 20+ years, and was horrified at their deaths. The pain on his face when he walks into the burnt camp seemed far more than just a loss of some useful tools. These people practically raised him.

That would certainly fit into the Disney Hates Moms paradigm.

Were there subtitles running when she was giving Jacob the drink of wine? She was mumbling some ritual prior to giving him the drink, and I’d be interested if that had any meaning.

Well, I don’t recall the exact quote, but he does say that for whatever her other insanities their mom was “right about that” (people being evil), and THEN he proceeds to list off the specifics.

I’ll watch that scene again tonight. But despite that, it really felt that Jacob’s brother truly enjoyed being around these people, and was saddened at their deaths.

I think he was much more angry that his chance to get out was gone. I think he expressed that he didn’t care one iota for the people, but he just wanted to get off the Island.

That would go counter to what UnMom said. You change (for the worse), not you die and you unleash something else. Now, that’s taking what she said as being accurate, of course, and even then, she may simply believe what she said to be true, and it may still be inaccurate. But whereas the smoke monster can replicate the dead he comes into contact with, and even has their memories, he doesn’t have their motivations, and post-transformation MiB has pre-transformation’s motivations (get off the island by any expedient means). So I think the Smoke Monster is MiB passed through the River Styx and The Light. It may have consumed his body per se, but he still exists as such.

It would certainly seem like Jacob’s brother was not an evil person, in fact all he really wanted was to see what was beyond his known world, and to take his brother with him. He honestly seemed to care for Jacob, and after he found out about their “mom” and what she’d done he was all the more adamant about removing Jacob from her influence, which you could argue was worse than any he may have exerted.

UnMom’s tactics were corrupt and she may have gotten a replacement, but she gravely marked the two boys in the process. MiB seems like the entirely injured party, but damn, what a ruthless bastard he became after his death/rebirth/transformation. Even the honest but UnSpecial Jacob helped create the ensuing problems with his rash actions against his brother.

I think the writers were trying to show that the actions of Jacob, the brother who thought himself the lesser of the two, who struggled and sacrificed to gain his “mother’s” love, were what set the Smoke Monster free. By killing or knocking out his brother, then sending him into the cave he unwittingly allowed the Smoke Monster to escape. The Smoke Monster seems to be the personification of the evil in men’s souls, and the mom seemed to be saying that the cave contained the essense of what makes men, both the good AND the evil. The Evil is now out, and looking to get off the island. The fact that it took his brothers form was simply convenience, and seems to have had nothing to do with anything related to what the unnamed brother did when he was alive (just as taking the form of Locke now seems unrelated to the real Locke, who was certainly not evil).

Nope, I think it is MiB transformed (UnMom did specifically mention rebirth). She bound the brothers actions, and Smoke Monster seems to be constrained by MiB’s constraints, which is a further confirmation.

I think all they’ve tried to do here is illustrate that “concentrated evil” is loose on the island, it’s Jacob’s fault, and he’s been trying for centuries to right the wrong that he caused. The Source Cave is the real secret of the island, and that’s what the Guardian is there to protect by keeping people away.

Pandora’s box. Kind of mixed in with Icarus flying too close to the sun, and the River Styx. Mythology jambalaya.

What I fail to understand about the whole thing is why Jacob wants a candidate to replace him? Smokey isn’t contained, the problem remains, and yet Jacob wanted to retire? If the whole problem is Smokey, then don’t you need to fix that before passing the torch to someone else? Perhaps Jacob felt he wasn’t strong enough to fix the problem because of his connection to it, so he was looking for help? I’m not sure, as that part doesn’t seem to make sense. They still haven’t really explained WHY anyone other than Jacob and Smokey are even on the island.

I don’t think Jacob wanted to “retire” so much as I think he foresaw his own death and was searching for a successor, or at least was continuing the game against his brother. It didn’t seem to be for Jacob to fix the problem - he created it and couldn’t seem to fix it even given an exceedingly long time to work at it. As to other people, it’s been indicated that people have been constantly coming to the island, always coming to bad ends (with those two hanging about eternally, it’s no wonder).

Another question: For the last few episodes, I had sort of assumed that the boy that UnLocke was seeing in the woods was a young Jacob, come back to remind him about the rules of their existence. But, it’s not the same actor, is it? That would mean the boy is someone else that UnLocke recognizes…or doesn’t, but who he realizes is long dead.

Jacob seemingly has been able to predict and in some ways influence the future by appearing during certain pivotal times in people’s lives. Maybe he knew that smokey would find a way to kill him and was trying to get the candidates on the island for when that occurs. Maybe he doesn’t want to retire, but knew that he would need to plan for when Smokey “finds his loophole” and kills him.

Edit. Looks like corsair beat me to it.

Hurley, duh.

Yes, but their will is identical. Jacob’s brother wanted to leave the island. MiB wants to leave the island.

Last season end had the new MiB who argues Jacob’s interest in men. But it’s in the MiB interest that men arrive, so that he may have an opportunity to leave. If no one arrives and nothing at all changes then Jacob can stay there and guard MiB for eternity.

It’s in Jacob’s interest to not break the balance. It’s in MiB interest to break it.

Which brings to another contradiction. In this season we were taught that yellow water = good = Jacob. Black water = smoke monster = bad.

But this episode tells us that MiB originates from THAT yellow water. And we’re also told that the water is a "good " thing:
"We must make sure no one ever finds it.

It’s beautiful.

Yes, it is. And that’s why they want it. Because a little bit of this very same light is inside of every men. But they always want more."

Which sounds like immortality or something.

So where’s the origin of the “bad” part? And why Sayid was resurrected by black water? Why was the water originally yellow and remained so?

Or maybe it’s the whole balance issue. Jacob’s brother is being sent in, channeling mostly hate, and so freed only the “black” part. Meaning that originally the cave kept a balance between good and bad. But then the pool we’ve been shown was clearly just yellow and good. Not mixed or balanced. As if the yellow pool never contained a black part that balanced powers.

So where the hell is smoke monster coming from?

Unmom can’t be smokey simply because she dies when stabbed.

Locke smoke gets stabbed by Sayid and nothing happens. And it gets stabbed by the same knife.

Exactly, the big reveal is that Adam and Eve are, um, two UNNAMED CHARACTERS!

Darlton checks another item off of their to-do list…

You can’t say it contradicts anything when we know that Smokey is not Jacob’s brother. How can it contradict if these are the actions of two completely different beings?

Jacob’s brother, IMO doesn’t act anything like Smokey. They may meet at some points, but we have no idea where they diverge on others.

You have no more power of knowing whether their will is IDENTICAL than I do knowing it’s not.

Rogue Midi-chlorians.

“Feel the power of the Dark Side, Jacob!”
-UnDarth Vader (Yet Another Man in Black)