Mafia: tried to make my own fun, but was thwarted

Is there a case where a game’s core mechanics completely fall apart simply because of a reload function? Is there a non-obscure game out there that incorporates identity transfer and the lack of reloading?

Sorry, bad use of mixed terminology. I’m referrering to an in-game condition that deviates from the “optimal” outcome. An example would be in Dark Castle, where if you fall off the bottom of the screen, you end up in the dungeon levels instead of just outright losing. Alternately, this is akin to the “defend Berlin” missions in Panzer General or the “defend Earth” missions in Wing Commander. Another good example is Thief, where being spotted by a guard isn’t instantly game ending, but rather changes the way the game is played. Mostly this is my response to “insta-fail” missions, like those annoying insta-fail stealth missions in NOLF, etc.

  • Alan

Ah, OK then. Some of those ideas work better than others – for example, almost nobody plays the losing path of a branching campaign. It is a waste of money to implement one in most games because nobody will ever play the non-optimal paths.

Your other examples are much better ways of implementing this. I guess it’s because those work on a moment-to-moment basis, whereas with a branching campaign you have clearly defined stopping points (the end of a mission) where you start to think, “Damn, I screwed that one up. Let me reload and try again.”

Everybody I knew explored the multiple paths in games like Wing Commander, where failing a mission didn’t mean failing the game. It was a lot of fun, to discover all the ways the story unfolded. The only reason people wouldn’t do it now is because they’ve been conditioned to think that failing a mission means reloading.

You people are making me feel bad about my constant quicksave/quickloads during Max Payne.

So over the course of my game, if you played a video of it back start to finish, I was only shot a few times.

The fact is, if Max Payne was a real person, and he survived all of the shit he went through, he’d HAD to have only been shot once or twice. And fleshwounds, at that.

So really, I’m keeping things realistic by striving for the perfect game. ;)

I’m with Brian here. The standard save/reload scheme really does impact how a game plays. I wish more developers would find a way around it. Iron Man modes are all good and well, but not many games are designed to be played that way.

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter is an excellent example of creatively addressing the problem. It’s very similar to what Brian’s describing in terms of how the saves work.

I’m playing a first person shooter from Sweden called Nosferatu that dynamically generates its content: monsters, treasure, goals. If you reload, nothing is the same as it was before. What a refresing change from the way most first person shooters work – die, reload, charge through remembering exactly where everything is.

 -Tom

I have never heard of this game Tom - any good ?

I don’t think a game system has been released that’s truly freeform; I wonder if anyone will. Even the ones that seem to be aren’t; it’s just a facade. The designers strap everything down. When you do something that breaks free of the strap, that’s a bug. :)

Peter

I have never heard of this game Tom - any good ?

I hadn’t heard of it either. Here’s the website. I’m reviewing it, so I don’t want to say too much yet, but so far it’s better than it’s annoying website would lead you to believe.

I brought it up because its dynamic content is an interesting solution to the tedium of regular saving/reloading.

 -Tom

I’ve never seen identity transfer in a game or even heard the concept… as far as I know I invented it. Sort of invented it anyway… I got the idea partially from Dungeon Keeper 2 where you First-Person possess various creatures. I thought this was a cool concept (partially for that reason I list DK2 among my favorite games).

Autoduel is my favorite '80s computer game (I played it on an Atari 800XL I believe) and that partially inspired my passion against Reloading. That game was designed around Reloading very elegantly, with a Clone system.

Some of my passion against Reloading derives from the lack of tension involved with the Reload function (nothing truly bad can happen) and the lack of realism, immersion, and AI that Reloading causes.

I see games moving more toward simulation in the future, and Reloading is only going to hinder that development.

I’d heard of it but I wrote it off as yet another Vampire related Euro-Adventure game… like those Dracula games from a while ago. It’s a shooter, eh? Does it have anything to do with Murnau?
He asked doubting it given the ludicrously armed guy at the website.

No, I’m afraid there’s no direct Murnau connection.
He replied, wishing someone had the artistic vision to do a game with production design drawn from old silent movies.

 -Tom

Well, I do think there is some truth to the notion that failure is more acceptable if it’s seamless. The Dark Castle example is a good one – you’re just dumped immediately into another area, and play continues. Mission-based games suffer from the problem of very distinct points of articulation, if you will – 15 or 20 minutes of gameplay can be summed up as a simple “win” or “loss.” A loss seems more severe in this case, because of the amount of time invested, so most people tend to replay the mission until they get the best (or at least a good) outcome. Since the player is also conveniently dumped at a place where they can save or load their game, it makes it all the more tempting to do so.

You also assume that many people replay games once they have finished them. I would guess that fewer than 2% of people who purchase a game actually replay a typical linear game. It usually makes more sense to spend resources on more content that everyone will see.

I believe both Europa 1400: The Guild and King of Dragon Pass did some sort of identity transfer.

I’ve been doing this identity transfer thing for years. Just the other day I was playing Starcraft. I was this little marine guy and I ran him into a bunch of zerglings. He killed some and died, so I transferred my identity to another little marine guy, who killed the zerglings and lived!

Yay me!

I believe both Europa 1400: The Guild and King of Dragon Pass did some sort of identity transfer.

I’ve been doing this identity transfer thing for years. Just the other day I was playing Starcraft. I was this little marine guy and I ran him into a bunch of zerglings. He killed some and died, so I transferred my identity to another little marine guy, who killed the zerglings and lived!

Yay me![/quote]

Wasn’t there a game about 2 years ago where you were a little angel thing that possessed various people? That’s kinda like identity transfer…

Aleck

Mess, sire.

Not to put Idol down, but didn’t the original AvP do this with it’s randomly placed Aliens? That game also skipped the saves entirely…

Tom,

Is it actually “dynamic”–that is, the game responds to how you play–or is that just a fancy word for “random”? :)

Peter

I do hope it’s not just me thinking of Paradroid here…

http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mafioso/games/pdroid.htm

Peter,

Isn’t “dynamic” just a fancy word for “random” anyway? :)

 -Tom