Yeah, it really is.

Also the actual editorial is so, so much dumber and worse than I thought it was based on its incredibly stupid headline and concept. Ye gods.

Yeah, it’s absolutely cringeworthy.

I don’t know what identity even is if one is unable to express it. If they’d got the cake anonymously without expressing their sexuality deliberately because of this homophobic policy, I don’t think that would make it ok?

So I guess I’d argue that case was both, even if identity was the crux of the matter.

I’ll have to acknowledge that I am not the person to ask about that, not being American. Hardly fox.news in that regard. Plus, I, uh, haven’t even claimed that it is happening.

Mostly just that ‘ignore’ and ‘shun’ are different words with different… implementations. That I don’t think businesses should be able to shun people for things they do outside of their interactions with said businesses. Or even inside, if said business is so huge it becomes impractical to ever be outside of it’s influence.

If it’s not happening… That’s great! Let’s keep it that way. Just don’t dismiss concerns that it could happen, especially when private individuals are running around with more money and power than some countries.

So let’s review: you didn’t read the original article, and not only can you not name a single person who is impacted by what you say could happen, but you don’t know if it has ever actually happened.

Is that all correct?

So you’re just talking about a theoretical thing that you think could possibly happen? And you have zero suggestions for how to decide what companies shouldn’t be able to freely decide who they associate with, nor what the criteria should be.

Do you just hate Facebook? Is that what this is about?

The NYT editorial board says that people are losing their right to free speech, and defending that claim, you said this:

I naturally took this to mean that you think this sort of thing is happening. If you don’t think that, then what do you think the NYT actually meant when they said people were being shunned?

Two people of the same sex show up at a bake shop and say we are getting married and we need a wedding cake, and you think their identity is a mystery because they didn’t say oh also we are gay?

I think maybe you’re choosing the wrong hill to defend. The NYT editorial is just white male grievance and resentment that they can’t say racist and misogynist and bigoted things anymore without people telling them that they’re bad or maybe going so far as to stop buying their newspaper. They’re fucking crybabies and should be mocked for their silliness.

I cant agree with this. If some jagoff wants to loudly proclaim that he’s a Nazi or white supremacist, I’m okay with Amazon saying he can find other ways to buy his stuff online.

Lets fabricate an extreme example, to illustrate the concept.

Lets say you own a store and Adolph Hitler walks in. Should you, as a business owner, have the right to kick him out of your store? I mean by your own formulation he hasn’t said or done anything inside your store that breaks any rules?

I’d say at a bare minimum it would be ok to kick him out. Because quite clearly his presence is going to absolutely cause distress to others. I mean what if your cashier or one of your customers is Jewish, quite clearly this mans words and actions present a very real threat to them, such that it is hardly reasonable to treat this man as any other customer even if he says or does nothing inside your store.

Or, to make it more relevant, Putin. He has, in a very real sense, been cut off from many large and even essential services in the West. Would you argue that Putin has a right to do business with western banks? You can hardly say that banking services are not important, and realistically if he was in Berlin and tried to do normal activities he would find this very difficult, if not impossible, in some cases. Is that not acceptable to you?

Point being I find your position an unreasonable one because it is quite clear words and actions can have impacts, even if they are not saying or doing things inside a business at this very second.

I mean clearly there is some line there where it transitions from reasonable to unreasonable. If Alex Jones went into a business where Sandy Hook survivor David Hogg was working and was kicked out on the spot, that seems eminently reasonable and appropriate to me. I don’t care how big or ‘essential’ said company is. Jones presents a malignant, malicious, and very real harm to survivors of the shooting, and if he finds it impossible to do business or live a normal life because of the consequences of his words and actions? Well fuck him, he could have chosen not to do those things.

Obviously at some point there is some level of speech where such a punishment is deeply excessive and wrong. Like if some bank executive makes it so you can’t buy a house because your daughter didn’t invite his daughter to her birthday party or something 10 years ago? Clearly that is an unreasonable response. So at some point on the axis between kindergartener says mean thing to literally Hitler there is a point at which enforcing social consequences becomes unwarranted or excessive.

But that point 100% is not at ‘never’.

Fuck Facebook, and Zuckerberg.

Pretty much. As I said in my links to the Cancel Culture thread, this is nothing new. It is just that the previous exclusive wielders of the tools of social opprobriation and public shaming now find themselves at the working end of said tools and do not like it one bit. So they are crying loudly and often that others are playing with their toys.

I’m not defending the NYT point of view. My original post, in it’s entirety, was this:

In direct response to this:

Which - after you all mistook that as some sort of ignorance on my part as to what the first amendment is/means - I further expanded to, in brief, ‘depending on the scale and type of the shunning, who is doing it and how much power they have, this might not be a good thing for free speech, even if it’s not actually the government taking part’.

You have me at a disadvantage, being completely unaware of the events of that day and only knowing the barest outline of what happened and the results (again, not American), but I don’t really see what you’re getting at? My point was merely that it was likely possible for them to buy the cake without that happening - if they’d concealed/not expressed their identity somehow - but why should they have to live in that sort of fear (of expression)? Why should anyone? Seems like we’re on the same page.

Adolf and Putin walk into a bar. Swung at head height by CraigM!

I guess my point is that this isn’t happening with any input/control from the people (i.e. us) that these things can (and do) affect. That it’s just happening, without oversight or control. It’s easy to agree with powerful people who do things that align with your worldview, especially when they have a hand in what your worldview is in the first place.

No, not really. Denying people services because of their identity isn’t the same thing as denying them services because of their speech or their views. They can’t change their identity, but they can change their speech or their views.

Put another way, saying I don’t want Nazis at my lunch counter is different than saying I don’t want black people at my lunch counter, in a very fundamental way. One is a permissible exercise of freedom of association and the other is not.

After examining the editorial board piece in detail, I have decided that I will not be changing my position regarding the New York Times at this time.

I will say it for you KevinC - Fuck the New York Times!

I dunno if I can agree with most of that.

Identity changes all the time. I’m not who I was 20 years ago. Parts of that identity will be physical attributes that are… resistant to change, but not impossible. Isn’t ‘sexuality is fluid’ the new mantra now? I actually agree with that. But it implies change is possible (albeit not necessarily desirable).

I also feel identity is completely intertwined with the expression of it. That if you cannot express yourself you are a non-entity, buffeted by external forces alone. I don’t think that’s healthy for anyone, or society.

I don’t see racists getting less racist if they’re driven only into the arms of the likeminded. But I’ll acknowledge the internet changed everything. Twitter is probably the most powerful media tool mankind has ever devised (sorry Zuck, when I start seeing literally every news outlet linking to facebook pages I’ll revise that opinion), but it’s just sorta happening to us. I’m glad it wasn’t around when I was 14, I probably would’ve said some dumb shit, captured for all time.

I feel like you’re working very hard not to acknowledge the fairly simple and obvious truth that bigotry isn’t the same thing as disagreeing with someone’s opinion.

Oh boy. I’m just going to back away from this slowly.

But I’m going to leave with this: you’re arguing that this gay couple who wanted to get married maybe had a choice about being gay and is thus comparable to Hitler asking for banking services.

Freedom of association is a thing.

Are you the government? If the answer is “no” then you can pretty much deny access or service to any one for nearly any reason. The only exception is protected classes. Alex Jones wouldn’t be kicked out of a place for being a white dude, he’d be kicked out for being Alex Jones.

Comparisons to Hitler (that, let’s be clear, you are making) are fucking stupid and a total waste of everyone’s time. He’d be in jail or executed and consequently have no use for banking services. Not because he’s a racist piece of shit that said mean things about Jews, but because he’s a genocidal mass murderer.

Call me crazy, but that is kinda outside the remit of any discussion on ‘free speech’. Though feel free to go deeper with absurdist hyperbolic thought experiments. What if pre-genocide art school Hitler wanted a bank account? Would we be morally obliged to withhold food from Hitler’s mother when he was a baby so she could watch him starve to death?

Also that you are trying very hard to not acknowledge the fairly simple and obvious truth that bigotry is as much as someone’s identity as anything else. Something that if they’re from a shitty background they probably didn’t really get all that much say in, and likely can’t even reflect upon as a result. But this is a digression - I just feel that ostracizing these people from the basic functions of society maybe isn’t the best way to facilitate any positive change. Especially if they’re not actually saying or doing anything bad in the direct context of the service being offered.

My concern is the technology to inflict this sort of punishment is most certainly out there, as well as the data and power, and both sit entirely within the hands of a few private entities. The scope for misuse is huge, and we’re still only beginning to come to terms with it. To what extent that actually happens right now, I couldn’t say. But, don’t forget, some day Zuck and Dorsey will be dead, and all we can do is hope the apparatus they leave behind falls into the hands of someone equally magnanimous. If that thought doesn’t churn your stomach at least a little, I dunno what else to say.

Lol, only if you care so much about reading and posting on Facebook that you think life without it isn’t worth living. Give me a break. Facebook and Twitter are not required to live in modern society.

Can someone learn/evolve not to be, say, bigoted against black people?

Can a black person learn/evolve not to be, say, a black person?

Once you have divined the answer, grasshopper, you will perhaps also divine what is meant by “identity”.

Also, you will still have to snatch this pebble from my hand.

Honestly, I think the next comment is going to be “look guys, I’m just asking questions.”