Timex
4692
Honestly, the actual population of NYC is kind of fed up with homeless crazies yelling at them and threatening them while they rid the subway.
Never mind, I can’t even.
Timex
4694
Just telling you the ground truth, man, not saying it’s right or wrong. Normal people get tired of being threatened and scared when trying to do normal things, so it hardens them, and then they’re less likely to condemn this kind of action.
From the Post article:
“He starts to make a speech,” freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vazquez said in Spanish during an interview Tuesday, referring to the disturbed man.
“He started screaming in an aggressive manner,” Vazquez told The Post. “He said he had no food, he had no drink, that he was tired and doesn’t care if he goes to jail. He started screaming all these things, took off his jacket, a black jacket that he had, and threw it on the ground.”
It doesn’t seem like he was threatening anyone? I’ve seen screaming unhoused people in every city I’ve ever worked or lived in, it’s not a violent threat that requires a response.
Do you think it is right or do you think it is wrong? Or are you neutral on the question of whether it is okay to kill people who annoy you?
Timex
4697
You ever been on a subway with a guy who is screaming and ranting? It is a threatening experience. Having a mentally ill dude screaming and throwing stuff around and saying he doesn’t care if he goes to jail… is not what you want to have going on next to you in a confined space.
To kill that guy? No, I do not think that’s right.
But I know that normal people who have experienced that situation are going to relate it to their own, and they are going to be less sympathetic to the guy.
It’s similar to folks who live in very progressive places like Seattle, who otherwise hold very progressive views on pretty much everything… but have become markedly less so when it comes to things like homelessness, because it’s way different when you’ve got camps full of junkies and mentally ill walking around in your neighborhood, or taking over your public spaces.
Things become different when they’re in your face on a daily basis, rather than abstract thought exercises.
I don’t think Timex is justifying it. I think he is trying to explain the mindset of the “silent majority” of New Yorkers. Most people just try their best to ignore unstable crazies.
I mean I’m right by a needle exchange and a homeless hotel. That’s ok with me. it’s when they leave shit in my steps, break my locks, or start muttering shit and I have to worry they are going to hit me on the head with a hammer that I don’t like.
As to this particular case, I haven’t even looked at details because it’s so political I don’t think I will get a clean look. I don’t trust the NYPost. They lie by omission a lot.
I’m glad we agree.
None of the other normal people on the subway killed that guy, though. So maybe the person who did isn’t a normal person, and maybe he didn’t do a normal thing, and probably the right way to respond to it is to recognize that it is wrong, not that it is understandable. It isn’t understandable, at least not to me. It’s not really any different than a lynching.
Yes, I have experienced this. It’s not pleasant but part of being in a society that doesn’t have a safety net is that you see people having mental health issues in public. It does not mean you are in danger or that violence is justified.
The most insightful quote I’ve ever read about the homeless issue was from some shop owner in downtown Seattle.
“Every time I have to clean up human feces out of my store stoop, my empathy goes down a notch.”
Timex
4702
There are actually at least 2-3 other guys there helping the guy restrain the mentally ill guy. None of them are intending to kill him, according to reports.
I’m sorry, but it is understandable to me, because people get tired of being put into situations where they feel helpless and scared. It wears on you.
And no, I would not describe this as remotely akin to a lynching.
“Yes, I choked the guy without stopping or letting up for fifteen full minutes, but I didn’t expect him to die. What am I, a doctor or something?”
Christ.
Timex
4704
A story with some interviews of eyewitnesses of the case.
Just in that video you can see how the nature of the threat gets exaggerated by the media reporting. The things that NBC reports that the witness said are not exactly the things the witness actually said.
Plus, the witness confirms that it was the Good Samaritan who launched the actual attack, from behind. This is just Bernie Getz without the gun.
Timex
4706
I believe that NBC was quoting other reports from the scene.
I’m confused, really. On the one hand, I believe you said you didn’t think this reaction was justified, or words to that effect. On the other hand, you seem to be trying to justify it as a kind of legitimate self-defense in the face of a threat; a reasonable reaction that somehow went wrong.
Timex
4708
I was just pointing out things that I think you were mistaken about. Like, I don’t think NBC is misquoting people, I think they were quoting other sources, aside from the one eye witness they actually interviewed directly.
I guess in terms of the actual events and what happened, I may think it’s more complicated than you do. You see it as a guy who murdered another dude on the subway, I’m not sure that’s what happened, but the information I have to evaluate the situation is limited.
I think sometimes your idealism leads you to rigid, binary debates but we all know you’re smart enough to understand the complexities of human nature. (I don’t mean that to sound critical. It’s honestly quite admirable!)
It’s really sad that this man who was behaving erratically or in a threatening manner couldn’t have been restrained and pulled off at the next stop without such severe consequences. (That kind of outcome probably happens very frequently.) When emotions get heated and fights break out, the consequences can be tragic.
There is no evidence that the man was behaving in a threatening manner, and there was no heated fight that broke out. He committed no violent crimes, and perhaps committed no crimes at all. Someone snuck up behind the man, put him in a chokehold and choked him to death, over a span of 15 minutes. It’s an unjustified, unprovoked attack. You can’t kill people because they annoy you. It’s legally wrong, and it’s morally wrong.
Why couldn’t he have been?
