He was too busy being lynched, I guess.
Menzo
4713
I think the message is pretty clear:
People with mental health issues should try not being crazy. Seems pretty simple, right? Because apparently having a mental health issue or being in crisis means that you are approved for assassination.
Yeah, I guess I should really get over being shocked by how some people think about violence.
The idea that extrajudicial violence is needed for people that break a perceived social contract is exactly why lynchings happened. It’s a valid comparison.
That’s my point! He coulda shoulda been for sure. I think it’s obvious we all agree. I hope the man responsible is punished appropriately for his actions.
It doesn’t take away from that truth to acknowledge the sad complexities of human nature and fear and herd instincts and uncertainty in an unfolding situation in a confined space. Fellow Qt3’ers (friends?) who acknowledge those complexities don’t deserve to be unfairly misinterpreted.
I don’t think human nature is complex and fear and herd instincts sometimes lead to bad and unjustified outcomes is a problematic statement. I do think hedging on whether this was a bad or unjustified outcome is problematic.
Timex
4718
I don’t think this is accurate, is it? The reports seem to indicate that the victim was aggressively threatening other passengers, demanding that they give him food. Certainly the reporting from that eye witness in NBC’s coverage states that he felt threatened.
I think perhaps part of the issue here is that no footage has been released thus far that shows what exactly this guy was doing prior to being put into a chokehold. It may very well be that he did nothing, or it could be that the coverage is correct in that he was threatening people (and given his past history of violence, such a threat would not have been empty, although those on the subway would not have known that).
This is certainly true, although if we are to believe the witness, no one there thought he was going to die, as he was continuing to fight and struggle. It does not appear to be similar to something like the situation where the cop kneeled on a victim’s head and refused to allow him to get up even after he went limp.
But again, I’m not sure we have footage to show exactly what happened, it may be that he continued to choke the guy after he stopped fighting. I have not seen evidence one way or the other.
If the guy intended to kill the victim, then obviously it’s wrong, as he certainly committed no capital crime.
If we believe that he merely intended to restrain him until qualified authorities could come and diffuse the situation, then we’re left with a more complex question of whether that’s ok. Is it ok to take preventative action in the face of a mentally unstable individual who is threatening others? Or are you required to act in a purely passive, reactive sense? I’m not sure. I think it’s more complex than you are suggesting.
What does aggressively threatening look like, I wonder? I think in this case it was…words? Does anyone say it was more than words?
If you’re being strangled, how big of a gap is there between fighting for your life and being dead?
Timex
4721
As I said, I don’t know what he was doing, as we haven’t seen footage of that yet. Presumably such footage exists though, and it’ll come out eventually. I think the MTA started installing cameras in every car last year.
But I’ve certainly seen people act in an aggressively threatening manner, prior to actually landing a fist on someone else though.
But again, I don’t know what happened yet, so I’m not defending anything specifically. I’m just expressing that my lack of information about what happened leaves me less certain than you are.
Yeah, and I think if you were the person doing the restraining, you’re then obligated to try and render aid to get them breathing again.
Or maybe use a method of restraint that doesn’t involve choking them to death.
So it’s ok to strangle someone as long as you try to resuscitate them afterwards?
Fair enough. But you do keep characterizing what he was doing as aggressively threatening, which is a description that prejudices the outcome. No witness has said that he directly threatened anyone at all, not even with words. He apparently shouted, demanded food, said he didn’t care if he went to jail or if he was killed. He threw his jacket on the floor. That seems to be the entirety of it. It’s possible that there was more than that, but nobody has said there was more than that.
According to the witness from the NBC report, the deceased said:
“I’m not taking no for an answer”
“I’m ready to go back to jail”
“I’ll hurt anyone on this train”
Timex
4726
Well, the reporting has said that he was aggressively threatening people. I realize that this could be just a thing of the reporters, but it could also be what witnesses described. As I said, we know from the one witness that he was scared by the guy, and having been in those kinds of situations, I can certainly imagine behavior that I would describe as “aggressively threatening”. Again, until we see footage, it’s speculation either way.
See, I think maybe we’re seeing a different thin from the witness reports here.
When we see the shouting and demands that you describe there, I’m imagining that he’s directing those comments at the people on the subway, not just into the ether. So, to me, that does in fact constitute a direct threat to them. If someone says to you that you need to give him food, and that he doesn’t care if he goes to jail, that seems like he’s implying that he’s going to commit a crime against your person if you don’t give him what he wants.
Hopefully, we can see more about what exactly happened leading up to his being restrained, but I can imagine a number of different situations that could have happened, some of which may have justified people taking action to prevent him from harming people.
In my experience with these sorts of folks in Seattle, it’s far more common to hear things like that shouted to no one in particular rather than directed at an individual.
About two months back, I was woken up at 3am by a woman standing on my porch, alternately screaming “Fuck you!” and “Kill me!”, and just moaning wordlessly. She curled up there for about an hour before wandering off.
I learned after that to keep my porch light off at night.
Timex
4728
Definitely, crazy people sometimes just yell, but sometimes they yell AT you. In this case, it could have been either, we won’t know until we see the footage.
People are jumpy these days, as they have a right to be. Random mass murder is trendy.
Someone yelling AT you still does not give you license to attack them.
Timex
4731
If someone openly declares that they will hurt anyone in a confined space, that you aren’t really able to get out of, I think this becomes much more murky. I can see situations where restraining that person is a valid option, without waiting for them to actually harm other people.
