Timex
4914
Yeah, also if video evidence exists of the marine continuing to hold him after he’s unconscious, then that’s definitely a problem, and I would agree with your assessment.
I just didn’t see that in any of the video footage.
But it seems like we have footage of the whole event, going into after the point where he was no longer restrained, so if we see the full footage it should show that.
The stuff that makes me think that Neely’s dying was surprising and sudden was what the witness in the nbc clip says, at the 2:21 mark.
I just don’t think it’s possible for that NOT to be the case. People don’t spontaneously suffocate without losing consciousness for several minutes first.
Timex
4916
I do not believe this is accurate. Losing consciousness in this way can cause your heart to stop beating, which then requires CPR to resuscitate you.
This is why this hold is so restricted in it’s use by law enforcement now, not just because they were afraid of cops intentionally killing you with it… It’s because they can ACCIDENTALLY kill you with it.
(I realize lots of cops will kill you for fun in various ways)
Another possibility in this case is that Nelly’s trachea could have been damaged, and then after he passed out, even of the restraint was released, it might not have restored air flow.
Ultimately though, at some point we will see this in the full footage. If the guy really kept choking him for minutes after he was unconscious, I agree that it’s a problem. But that witness said none of them thought Neely was in danger. I can’t imagine that we can have a better understanding of what was happening with what we know, than the folks who watched it go down.
The medical examiner was fairly clear on the cause of death. There is no mention of cardiac arrest.
It’s true that a chokehold can also cause a stroke or a cardiac arrest but those are different causes of death from having your airway compressed for a long time.
Timex
4918
Sure, I think that’s going to be the cause in this case on the medical report, because no matter what happened afterwards, it was a direct result of him being choked. He will have bruising on his neck.
The only way you would see something else would be if he died of some unrelated drug thing.
Again though, we’ll see. If he really choked him for minutes after he went unconscious, there’s video of it.
If you hold someone in a chokehold for 15 minutes you have killed them dead. In fact it’s wayyy overkill. They were probably brain dead by minute 5.
Gang, there’s three ways this works, barring outside things like strokes, that would still be caused by the hold.
One, you pinch off the blood to the brain. This is the classic martial arts move, compressing the carotid and jugular, which causes a vagal reaction and the body shuts down. Keep it up, someone dies. Let it go, 99.9% of the time they recover just fine. We did this shit as teenagers. The vagus nerve is a fickle little thing and it doesn’t take much to make it kick in.
Two, you stop the person from breathing by compressing the trachea. Death by asphyxiation.
Three, while you’re choking them you do enough damage to the throat, particularly in breaking the hyoid, that even if you let up on the choke they still die. Still asphyxiation, it just happened after you let up the choke.
Let’s quit arguing about the methods and means, those are the ways that choking someone kills them, outside of the aforementioned other things like a stroke beating the choke to the punch. Topic over, move on.
Sharpe
4921
Here’s an article by sci-fi/fantasy author and former military man Myke Cole on the issue of the Marine being military.
After talking about the military doctrine of proportionate response, he specifically pushes back on the idea of this incident arising naturally out of military experience:
In all my training, I was never taught to use a chokehold on an unarmed opponent. But the military is vast and combative training varies between services and even units. It is possible that the man who killed Jordan Neely used skills he acquired in the military.
But where he acquired the capacity doesn’t matter. The way he acted is not the way armed service members are trained to act, and anyone claiming that his status as a Marine indicates a kind of professionalism either doesn’t know what they’re talking about or is deliberately obfuscating what it means to have military training in interacting with civilians under duress. The public discourse implying that his actions were in any way in accord with the doctrine and culture of the military—and the legion of institutions, public and private, whose armed members support its mission at home and around the world—is absolutely false.
This article has the most eyewitness statements that I’ve seen so far.
“The Marine was still choking him when we got up there,” Kings said. He asked bystanders what was going on, and they told him: “They said he had gotten on the train and was belligerent about getting his food. He was using the wrong method, he was using aggressive panhandling, he was screaming and hollering about how he needed food.”
Kings didn’t do anything to intervene. It was already too late, he said. “The man was lifeless. It was obvious the man had been choked out.”
Penny’s lawyer statement just repeats the ‘aggressively threatening’ formulation without being specific about what form the aggressive threatening took. We are days in and still not a single person says that Neely attacked anyone. It’s pretty clear that he didn’t, or the statement would say so. If your defense is going to be self-defense, you’d be calling attention to the specifics of why self-defense was called for. If you’re not, it’s because there aren’t any specific acts you can point to.
ShivaX
4924
Lawyer viewpoint, extra relevance since Greenfield is a New York lawyer.
That said all facts and details still not known, etc, etc.
Has anybody watched the full video that the news sites have been chopping up and censoring? You probably shouldn’t. But the marine strangles the guy until he shits himself, then strangles him for an additional 50 seconds after he completely stops moving. At some point a bystander yells that he’s gone and that they might catch a murder charge.
I don’t know how anybody could look at this and see something that’s justified by the guy acting erratically.
Thanks for the link, but I’m not sure I can watch it.
Edit:
I couldn’t help myself. Some observations.
That guy is struggling because he can’t breathe. That’s what people do when you’re strangling them. You can’t justify continuing the chokehold because the guy is struggling. Anyone would struggle!
There is virtually nobody on that car who needs defending. Penny could have stopped. He had help from two other people. There would have been no danger involved in telling them to hold the guy’s arms so he could release the chokehold.
Penny doesn’t stop even after Neely is unconscious. What could Neely have done to get Penny to release the chokehold? The answer seems to be ‘die’ and nothing else.
Penny’s first act after releasing his lifeless victim is to go and retrieve his hat. Fuck that guy.
You shouldn’t. It’s weird that even though all outlets had this video, as far as I know none of them reported on the bystander saying he was gone while they continued to strangle him.
That’s the sort of thing I was getting at earlier, when I said the media had chosen a side on the narrative.
Timex
4929
At the 2:00 mark, Neely is still kicking his feet and struggling. At 2:50 they stop restraining him.
The suggestion that the Marine continued to choke Neely out for an extended period of time after he lost consciousness is observably false now. As soon as the guy holding his arm says, “he’s out,” the Marine immediately gets off him.
You’re the choke hold expert, is 50 seconds an okay amount of time to continue doing that after the guy goes completely limp, minutes after he shit himself? You said earlier this would be an acceptable way to restrain a child, you still feel that way?
Timex
4932
You guys were all saying you were sure that the Marine kept choking Neely for a long time after he was already unconscious. We know that’s not true now. We can see it with our own eyes.
As soon as that guy holding his arm says he was out, the marine immediately jumps off him.
It definitely does not support the kind of story of malice you guys were telling yourself previously.
He couldn’t tell Neely was out until a bystander told him?
