Making a Murderer

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41

Where’s this coming from? My understanding was that it was Kratz who refused the filmmakers’ requests to be interviewed for the series.

How many times did you try to interview Kratz?
Demos: I think over the course of nine years we reached out to him three times.

Why do you think that he’s so eager to talk now when he refused to be interviewed by you for nine years?
Demos: I think that’s a question for him. He could have had more of a voice in this project. Laura’s letter inviting Kratz to be part of the documentary is part of the case file. It clearly lays out our intentions going into making the series, what we thought Kratz would add if he was willing to do a sit-down interview with us. It was his choice not to. Nonetheless, we have footage of him in press conferences, arguing in court. We did our best to represent his point of view that Steven was a dangerous criminal who needed to be taken off the street.

source

42

A few articles had Krantz state that he was denied an interview by the film makers, cited on the wikipedia page for the movie. It looks like it’s something of just the word of the producers against his in that regard.

Ultimately though, some of the facts of the case make the idea that it was a frame job just kind of hard to fathom. Getting the remains of the victim into Avery’s salvage lot is the part that just doesn’t make sense from the perspective of trying to create a suggestion that the cops set everything up. Especially when you consider that the actual case mentioning the cops who supposedly did it actually didn’t exist at the time of the case. It wasn’t until later that those cops came under scrutiny in the court. So you’re left with the idea that cops were willing to engage in this complex frame up operation in order to stop a court case against the county that seems really unbelievable.

Seriously, what is the sequence of events that end with the victims dismembered and burnt remains in Avery’s salvage lot as part of a scheme to frame Avery?

Edit:
One thing to point out here… I also don’t know with any kind of certainty that Avery DID do it, as I’ve not seen the evidence myself either. I’m just finding it nonsensical to think that folks are convinced on his innocence on nothing more than the basis of a Netflix series.

43

No, not necessarily. It could be checked, as the quote I posted indicates there is evidence: “Laura’s letter inviting Kratz to be part of the documentary is part of the case file.”

One thing to point out here… I also don’t know with any kind of certainty that Avery DID do it, as I’ve not seen the evidence myself either. I’m just finding it nonsensical to think that folks are convinced on his innocence on nothing more than the basis of a Netflix series.

No-one here is saying he’s necessarily innocent, nor do the filmmakers, nor does the defense. Have you seen the series?

44

6 episodes in and I think they should rename this mini series to The Buting and Strang Power Hour. If I’m ever arrested for something, my first call will be to their office.

But I’m still leaning towards guilty (in spite of the excellent defense team). I think the prosecution tried to hurry things along by jumping to conclusions, and it seems like some shady crap was going down in the haste to get Steven convicted, but there’s just too much evidence against him that I find hard to believe could have been fabricated.

45

Whoever mentioned that the framing party couldn’t have framed him without being part of the murder is just wrong though. If it was a framejob, the murderer likely put the body parts in the pit to frame Steven because the murderer knew the police would accept that as a probable suspect. The key/blood/car/bullet evidence could be planted by police who are already sure Avery did it and just want to nail it home. It’s also possible the car and body were both placed on property by the murderer yet the key/bullet/blood was by another party. There’s no rule on how convoluted it gets. Sure in most cases the simplest is what happened, but also in most cases it’s someone close to the victim which would make you wonder why they were all excluded despite tampering with voice mails.

46

If there are any cries of innocence, it is for Dassey. It really looks like a railroad job as far as he is concerned. The kid was super thick. The things his initial attorney said and did are absolutely outrageous. Would really like to hear more of the story on that. But it does seem reasonable that Dassey was coerced into his confession…at least from what was presented.

This article from the same site Timex had previously cited shows a list of possible suspects - many of whom also lived on the property and some were suspicious during interviews. I think maintaining Avery’s innocence to a reasonable doubt is a very difficult task. But things are just so muddied by the horrible investigation, I can see why someone can be steered there.

47

And I would agree with that.

48

Yeah, it’s possible that whoever murdered the woman could have framed Avery, maybe. But the idea that the cops did? That just doesn’t make sense at all, unless they were the ones who actually killed her. And I find that impossible to believe that they murdered a woman with the purpose of framing Avery, simply because of a case brought against the entire county as a whole, which is what the movie series tried to argue.

You are suggesting a case where someone else, unknown to us, framed Avery, and then the cops also, separately, decided to plant evidence to frame him and solidify the case. It might be theoretically possible, but I don’t know if it’s a reasonable doubt.

But again, I haven’t seen the entirety of the evidence.

49

Actually the series is trying to argue reasonable doubt.

— Alan

50

If someone else killed her, then planted the body at Steven’s place, the department that he was suing for 36 million dollars might find themselves with a case of blahs when it came to investigating outside Avery. In addition, some in the department might have planted some evidence in order to build their case against Avery.

I believe Avery is guilty at this point, but I also think the county police aren’t the most intelligent group…or they’re corrupt.

51

The local police have an immense hatred for Mr Avery, look at the former sheriff who even after he was proven innocent in the previous case said he still had his doubts. That’s a pretty irrational outlook, especially for law enforcement. I have no doubts that people that are that narrow minded would move a key from a car they found to the trailer just to seal the deal.

52

That’s my feeling, too. Do I think that he’s guilty? Quite possibly. Do I think evidence was planted/moved? Absolutely. The only question for the series (really) is the question of reasonable doubt, and I think the jurors should have had that in spades. The evidence doesn’t line up, the theory of the crime doesn’t line up, and the likelihood of evidence being planted seems damn near 100%.

53

But why do you believe that the evidence was planted or moved?

54

Aside from the 8 days (IIRC) it took them to find a set of car keys that were in plain sight – in a room that had been searched multiple times before but which, once the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s office shows up, miraculously appears – the fairly obvious planting of the blood evidence is what cinched the deal for me. There are no finger prints in the car, but there are big blood smears? The former makes it sound like the car was wiped down (possible) while the latter makes it clear it wasn’t. If it wasn’t wiped down, there should have been finger prints, but there weren’t. I suspect it was wiped down, and the blood was added ex post facto (as evidenced by the tampered with blood sample in the possession of the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s office, which clearly had the seal broken and the vial penetrated with a needle).

Also, while I don’t think Avery is a genius, I suspect that, in the several days after the murder and before the reporting of the victim as missing (and the police investigation), he would have gotten rid of the car. If he committed the murder, I’ll bet he did get rid of the car. As pointed out, while he’s not a genius, he has a car crusher on site and could easily have crushed the vehicle. Having those folks just wander right up to it and find it is suspicious, too, but that could just be dumb luck – and I doubt Avery would have given permission for folks to search the yard if there was any possibility that the car was just sitting there on the side of the road waiting to be found.

I’m not sure what to make of the portions of the body that were found in the “burn pit.” Maybe he put them there, maybe someone else did. I truly don’t know. If there wasn’t obvious planting of evidence elsewhere, I would have assumed that he did it and finding the body there would point to his guilt. However, all the other evidence makes me doubt the burn pit evidence, too.

I’m not at all sure if Avery is guilty. He seems like an asshole, and I don’t like him, but I don’t know that there’s enough reliable evidence to convict, esp. given the circumstances with the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s office.

I don’t think Dassey is guilty. His confession is a joke and a miscarriage of justice. He’s clearly not all there, and had wildly ineffective counsel. Every time his lawyer came on screen I wanted to punch him through my TV.

I don’t know who is guilty. What I am pretty sure of is that crucial evidence appears to have been placed at the Avery residence by a third party.

55

IIRC, the brother was the one that gave permission for the search party to go through the lot.

Other than that, I share a lot of concerns about the handling of the case and the evidence gathered. Avery may very well be a murderer, but I feel that the Manitowoc County sheriffs had a clear conflict of interest.

The vial of blood is the wonkiest bit to me. As far as I’ve seen, there’s been no good reason given, outside of the conspiracy theory, as to why the seal was broken and the stopper having a clear syringe mark. If the seal was broken for some after-the-fact testing, why wasn’t it resealed and noted? Avery leaving a bunch of obvious smears of blood in the truck, but having the smarts to wipe off his fingerprints stretches credulity.

56

On the body being moved. That was also obviously a set up. if pieces of the body was found at 3 (THREE?!) different locations, but the majority of it was found in one of those locations. Its obvious the body was moved multiple times. The burn barrel being the method of transport in one of them. The location of the majority of the body would be the final location.

So, using that common sense he took it to a remote pitt, and moved it back to his yard? Ya, my mind is old and not what it once was but that is just beyond believable! So another piece of planted evidence.

Those cops are the worse corrupt cops ever! More like Keystone cops, it would be funny if not so pathetic.

Now I’ve heard other evidence was excluded, stuff that is pretty damning like the more detailed confession from Brandon that was never shared in the documentary. IF that is true, then he’s guilty as sin.

Problem is once the cops start tampering and planting stuff. It just makes you dismiss or question reasonable evidence like the confession not played. If there is a grain of truth to the "other’ evidence not seen in the documentary, they are both guilty.

However, the handling of the case and the falsification of evidence just makes it impossible to trust the authorities and makes you livid that cops get away with such shoddy frame ups, rather than sympathizing with the victim and wanting to hold the culprit to account. If anything comes out of this I hope its that cops realize if they are going to do a frame they had better have the RIGHT person and they had better damn do a perfect job on their frame, otherwise don’t bother, the backlash is not worth it.

57

Btw there were also things left out which further support Avery’s defence like an expert who testified that the burn pit at his house couldn’t have created enough heat to burn the body in the way it was (and thus it must have happened elsewhere => body was moved).
Overall my major problem with the whole case are the inconsistencies. It is absolutely possible that Avery did it but not in the way the prosecution claimed he did. There is no way that he is a master criminal (removal of the human blood and all other DNA traces in his house/garage) and a total retard (leaving blood in the car and the car in his own car park) at the same time.
I also don’t see any motivation for this crime. He was about to get rich (he wouldn’t have had to settle if all of this didn’t happen) and while he certainly showed some suspicous behaviour he didn’t commit any sex related crimes in the past and even if we assume that he did it it’s more than weird that he’d invite a boy to such a crime (I’m not a profiler but a murder with sexual motivation is a very personal thing so I find it hard to believe that it’d escalate in such a way). It just doesn’t add up for me and combined with the questionable methods of the police (Manitowoc’s involvement in this case simply can’t be excused) there is at least reasonable doubt.

58

He had a motive, (according to sources online). He asked for her repeatedly on multiple occasions, and she was uncomfortable going out there because once Avery came out with only a towel on when he knew she was coming.

So is that motive real or just another keystone cop special delivery, I don’t know. However, there is a motive offered by the police.

Agree with the rest of what you said though…

59

Aside from the 8 days (IIRC) it took them to find a set of car keys that were in plain sight – in a room that had been searched multiple times before but which, once the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s office shows up, miraculously appears – the fairly obvious planting of the blood evidence is what cinched the deal for me.

But as I pointed out previously, this isn’t actually what happened. This is what was presented in the movie, but it’s false.

The key was hidden on a ledge on the back of a cabinet. It didn’t miraculously appear at all. When they moved the cabinet, this caused it to fall off of the ledge and land on the floor.

This is kind of what I’m talking about. You’re basing an opinion upon a presentation from a movie, as though it is reality, but it’s not. You can’t use a movie to draw conclusions about such things, because it’s not the same as watching the actual events.

There are no finger prints in the car, but there are big blood smears? The former makes it sound like the car was wiped down (possible) while the latter makes it clear it wasn’t. If it wasn’t wiped down, there should have been finger prints, but there weren’t. I suspect it was wiped down, and the blood was added ex post facto (as evidenced by the tampered with blood sample in the possession of the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s office, which clearly had the seal broken and the vial penetrated with a needle).

Or he was simply wearing gloves? That’s the other way you get a situation with no fingerprints.

60

But then how did his blood get smeared in the car through the gloves?