Things that people considered ok at the time, but were really kinda super racist and not ok by todays standards:
(older Disney, and cartoons more generally, has a number of these things really)
And on and on. Which is to say that your dismissal of the notion that something could have been broadly considered ok 40+ years ago, but no longer considered such today, is off the mark.
The origin for Iron Fist is uncomfortable, because it is a trope that as Telegrog notes, has some racist undertones. Even if not done out of animosity. I’ve got no investment in the character other than someone who generally likes the Netflix Marvel shows. But the origin certainly raises a few eyebrows and needs to be done thoughtfully, if at all. It’s the kind of thing that if you aren’t interested in putting that effort, you’re probably better altering. Its a trope that is showing its age.
It’s definitely a product of its time, in the same way that Luke Cage was. A time when many in the western world were becoming aware of how cool traditionally Asian martial arts were, and they did so largely because of Bruce Lee - who actually did teach guys like Steve McQueen and James Coburn (and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) fighting skills that seemed almost magical to observers - and Lee was attacked by at least some members of his own community for doing so.
But given how millions of MMA participants there are in Europe and the Americas, let alone the countless others who enrolled at one point in a Taikwondo, Karate, Kung Fu or (more recently) Muay Thai class or two, getting epileptic over a white guy learning martial arts from an Asian guy is what seems small-minded and outdated (and has more in common with the xenophobic guys who attacked Bruce Lee for not remaining insular).
Man, when someone comes in here spitting fire about Iron Fist and how horribly racist it is and we’re all bad people for not boycotting it, Marvel, Netflix, and America itself, they’re in for a world of hurt.
What? Folks in the west getting into martial arts should be my positive takeaway from growing up while Kung Fu, Karate Kid, Blind Fury, American Ninja, Green Hornet, Iron Fist, and every other bit of media with white guy learning wire-fu from magical Asians came out? Good for those western martial arts pioneers, I guess, but other than the general normalization of martial arts as a thing, why should that make this stuff okay to me?
White savior/appropriation is totally a thing, and it’s offensive in a number of ways. I don’t get up in arms about it because life is too short, but it happens and it fucking sucks when you’re on the other side. It’s about a white guy learning [insert other culture] magic because it’s so cool and weird and mystical which perpetuates the stereotype of “otherness” and works against understanding. It reduces people to broad caricatures, alienates, fosters ignorance, and reinforces western supremacy.
It places Asians in service to the white guy’s story. The main character is the white guy. He’s the one that grows and learns. He’s the one that overcomes adversity. He employs eastern magic powers to save others. Usually, the white guy wields that power better than the native people he’s learning it from because his western-ness (like his rebellious individuality or quippy good nature) is an X-factor that allows him to excel at it. The Asians are either bad guys or the teacher, so they get to demonstrate their sneering or grudging respect skills.
None of this is malicious, but it’s still a net negative. The dumb mish-mash of platitudes from Taoism, Buddhism, Karate, and whatever else seemed Asian to westerners tossed out like pearls of deep wisdom is icing on the ignorance cake.
At the very least, it’s a lazy unimaginative story that always hits the same beats and ends the same way.
If you can’t relate to a protagonist going through a character arc of growth because you don’t think he’s the right colour then that’s your problem, really.
I suppose if I was from the mystical dimensional city of K’un L’un, like you believe you were, I might not view your sentiments to be as xenophobic as they seem to be when viewed through the looking glass of reason.
It doesn’t sound like you’ve ever even read an Iron Fist comic though if you think they’re about a western guy being better than the people he learned from. Hurl your vitriol at Avatar or Dances with Wolves for sustaining that tired trope, which is essentially just an empowerment fantasy, like most superhero origins.
Yes, I totally believe the mystical dimensional city of K’un L’un is a real place, just like I think the Iron Fist is a real ability. Good job disarming my argument.
Because K’un L’un isn’t a real spot on the map, it’s impossible to point to Iron Fist and say it’s very much a “western dude learns eastern martial arts” story?
As for your third paragraph, you know there’s more to appropriation than the white savior story, right? My post was about the white savior and appropriation issues in general and not referencing Iron First in particular, but since you find the subject so touchy, I guess you can’t distinguish that nuance. I’ll help you out: Iron Fist is not specifically a “white savior” story as far as I know. It does very much appropriate and fetishize eastern culture. Yeah, it’s an empowerment fantasy. For white dudes.
You acknowledge that it’s a “product of its time” so I assume you understand that we’ve figured out that it’s not a super-cool thing anymore. So I’m not sure what you’re defending now.
But maybe I’m wrong about that. Maybe you yearn for a time when it was okay to churn out these kinds of shallow and offensive stories? If true, then I’ve got good news for you. There’s a few decades worth of this stuff out there.
As for this, you know what? You’re right. It’s my issue that I’m bothered after having a lifetime of Hollywood serving me stories of white guys learning kung fu from wise old Asians. I should just suck it down and be grateful that Keye Luke was able to get some work out of David Carradine.
[quote=“Telefrog, post:67, topic:77818”] You’re right. It’s my issue that I’m bothered after having a lifetime of Hollywood serving me stories of white guys learning kung fu from wise old Asians. I should just suck it down
[/quote]
No, by all means comment on how you are offended that there’s a story about a karate kid learning about karate and related moral values, in order to combat bullying, from an Asian dude. Even if it seems ridiculous to not recognize the universal human values in a story about learning that we should be open-minded and tolerant of new ideas and cultures – getting outraged at the prospect of the protagonist actually doing those things, because he’s the wrong color.
But when you try to extrapolate your frayed feelings into some more objective maxim about what’s “offensive” or acceptable you might encounter others who understand that “the exploration of a culture foreign to the protagonist, who learns from it” isn’t the same thing as Mickey Rooney squinting his eyes and wearing false buck teeth and representating another race.
Who is offended by strong moral values and combating bullying? I assume you’re talking about Karate Kid? Great movie. I liked how the magic Asian wizard taught Ralph Macchio karate by making him paint fences and wash cars, you know the way it’s always been done. Inscrutably magical! It was even better when he taught Macchio how to overcome adversity by rotating a pellet-drum.
Also, I love how everything goes to 11 with you. I’m at turns “outraged” and “epileptic” about this. But please, do go on telling me how I shouldn’t be offended by western stereotypes of Asians.
The apparent disaster of basic television competency that’s about to render these more charged cultural debates moot is starting to look like a silver lining.
You guys can’t keep riling poor Dessy up like this! his bitter old heart can’t take the strain! WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE ORNERY DUDES WHO WOULD LIKE THE DIFFERENT-LOOKIN FOLK TO STOP GETTING SO UPPITY??
Seriously, shame @telefrog. I’d have figured your Asian Wizard Powers would let you see the harm you’re doing here long before it got this bad.
edit: it’s possible I just couldn’t find the “what are you shitheads doing” jpg. But I’m pretty okay with the substitute I came up with.
It sounds more and more like they completely and totally dropped the ball here on everything that would make an Iron Fist story worth telling.
Jones:
“I’d love to have the budget for these shows to have a full-on Game of Thrones style dragon,” he explained. “But unfortunately you know, we have budget restraints. That’s the nature of the show.”
Budget my ass. This is Marvel and Netflix, and I realize we’re not dealing with an Avengers budget here, but if they had their priorities right, they could’ve made this happen. Look at what the CW shows, especially Flash, are doing. They’re not all winners over there (the recent Gorilla city episodes looked pretty bad), but they’ve knocked it out of the park before (King Shark!), and they’re doing a lot of effects in most episodes (and over a full season, not just the dozen episodes Netflix shows get). I can’t believe Iron Fist couldn’t have found a way to include a couple episodes with the dragon.
Eh, each series still gets an evaluation. Originally they weren’t even really thinking about second seasons for any of them. The way things are going Luke Cage probably won’t get one. You still have budgets to work with, and a first season, no matter what, doesn’t really quantify that kind of stuff.
But it’s an important part of the story. It’s not a big part, it certainly wouldn’t need the prominence the dragons have in Game of Thrones, but it’s an important aspect of the role of Iron Fist. If you don’t budget for that, I’m willing to go and and say you’re doing it wrong.
“We don’t really have the budget for fight choreography, what if we just have a bunch of courtroom drama and mention that Matt Murdoch is fighting crime by night?”
