Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread so we can talk about [REDACTED]

[Lantz]

First off, he keeps working from this premise that the original endings were no worse than any other games and that the quality of writing is equivalent to the rest of series up to that point. Does anyone else actually believe that to be the case? Even people who don’t hate the endings can see the endings were rushed and not of a quality of the rest of the game.

I think the original ending holds up to the rest of the series. I also consider the whole final mission as a very long extended ending versus the idea of the final FMV being the ending. I thought it was a lot better wrapped up then something like KOTOR 2, for instance. In fact, I liked it better than the ME2 boss battle ending.

I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion on the ending and all, but I don’t think trying to make the point that everyone agrees with you is really helping the discussion.

[Grifman]

First off, he keeps working from this premise that the original endings were no worse than any other games

If this is true, then why such an uproar? I play my share of RPG’s and I can only think of 2 that drew anything like this amount of criticism:

1. Fallout 3 for requiring you to enter a radioactive chamber and die when you had a companion NPC for whom radiation was no problem but who refused when you asked him

2. KOTOR2, where the ending was obviously rushed with all sorts of things happening for no apparent reason (your ship crashes, then appears magically to rescue you, all of your NPC’s vanish, except one who has mini-adventure (the female bounty hunter), etc. It was pretty bad, Obsidian admitted they ran out of time, and they even asked Lusa Arts for time/money to fix it but they refused.

So if Tom think’s this isn’t any worse than any other game, then he’s going to have to explain the difference between fan reactions to ths ending vs. all those other endings.

[tomchick]

Good lord, this conversation again…

He is completely off his rocker. First off, he keeps working from this premise that the original endings were no worse than any other games and that the quality of writing is equivalent to the rest of series up to that point.

Keep in mind he doesn’t think the writing in the Mass Effect games is good in the first place, whether you’re talking about endings, middles, beginnings, or otherwise. It’s earnest, Mary Sue, young adult, obvious, derivative space opera with godawful dialogue told through embarrassingly clunky puppet theater. Which is fine if you’re into that sort of thing.

So, yeah, the ending is no worse than the rest of the games. Except that at least Bioware introduced a little ambiguity when it came time to shut everything down, as if they were writing grown-up sci-fi. That went over well.

-Tom, firmly seated in his rocker, thankyouverymuch

[scharmers]

I have something like 80 hours of game footage sitting here, which I edited. Much of it is on YouTube, under the name of my employer on this.

Where’s yours?

Evasion cat is evasion

“Hey Dawn^H^H^H^HStarlight, have you actually played the game??” is the new “Hey E5, which EB???”

LOL

[tomchick]

So if Tom think’s this isn’t any worse than any other game, then he’s going to have to explain the difference between fan reactions to ths ending vs. [Fallout 3 and KOTOR2] endings.

Pish, that’s easy. Although there were certainly reactions to those other games you mentioned, you’re right that ME3 is a very different situation. Off the top of my head, I’d guess it’s a combination of four things:

1. The exaggerated sense of entitlement that comes with playing three games that sold people a bill of goods about player agency, and kept up a steady stream of content between releases.

2. It’s EA. Everyone hates EA because it’s so easy to do.

3. A handful of very loud people driving a big band wagon, basically creating their own narrative about the game and bouncing it around in their echo chamber.

4. Writing is starting to matter more to people now that videogames are doing a better job of showcasing good writing.

   -Tom

[Telefrog]

1. The exaggerated sense of entitlement that comes with playing three games that sold people a bill of goods about player agency, and kept up a steady stream of content between releases.

Yup. I’d say it’s very much about this for me. The fact that the Starchild popping up and suddenly offering the player a choose your own ending scenario that has nothing to do with what I’ve done over the course of three games is the big bummer.

You’ll note that the two examples (KOTOR 2, Fallout 3) are both games that did the same thing. Lots of rushed crap at the end with your gameplay over the course of the game having nothing to do with what happens.

[blah]

Good lord, this conversation again…

Yes, let’s feign disinterest, apathy, exhaustion (take your pick), after posting about this on your blog. Or were you expecting to say your peace and have no one respond?

Pish, that’s easy. Although there were certainly reactions to those other games you mentioned, you’re right that ME3 is a very different situation. Off the top of my head, I’d guess it’s a combination of four things:

1. The exaggerated sense of entitlement that comes with playing three games that sold people a bill of goods about player agency, and kept up a steady stream of content between releases.

2. It’s EA. Everyone hates EA because it’s so easy to do.

3. A handful of very loud people driving a big band wagon, basically creating their own narrative about the game and bouncing it around in their echo chamber.

1. Oh, the entitlement card again. You gotta be as sick of saying that tripe as the rest of us are of hearing it by now, right? Obviously anyone who disparaged the endings in any way did so because of entitlement, it couldn’t just be because they sucked, right? I’ll be glad when that word stops becoming the current trend. It’s a catch all, cop out word used to try and wash away any topic it’s used in.

2. As for hating EA, that would be funny except for the fact that when I first came here multiple people accused me of being an EA PR plant for defending them and Bioware. Again, the EA hate card is just another convenient excuse to explain away why a massive amount of people can’t stand these(those) endings.

3. Are we still pretending this to be true? A handful of very loud people did this? Please.

4. Finally, one of the four that actually holds water.

To sum up you are basically claiming that this small group of gamers that were too dumb to understand the original endings felt so entitled that they raised hell until they got a company worth five billion dollars to cave and produce these new endings? And you believe that? This is EA, they piss people off all the time and don’t give a shit, they weren’t going to cave to a small group of angry gamers. If it were that easy, these things would happen all the time. And they don’t. Even EA and Bioware saw that this wasn’t your typical internet moment, how can you still fail to see that it was something else?

And trying to portray the people who were dissatisfied with the endings as selfish, entitled, and stupid is even more insulting than the garbage Bioware tried to pass off as the original endings in the first place. I guess if it makes you feel better to think that, knock yourself out, but it’s far from the truth.

[divedivedive]

Jesus dude, do you have any gears other than “vomit of bile”?

[Telefrog]

I really like how “entitled” has become a dirty word to some people.

[Ginger_Yellow]

I thought it was a lot better wrapped up then something like KOTOR 2, for instance.

So, it was better than one of the most infamously bad/non-existent endings in videogame history? Woohoo!

[Jonathan_Crane]

Dawn “Starlight” Falcon doesn’t need to play something to understand it. That’s why he’s the most respected poster on this board, by far.

Good lord. I had no idea that they were the same entity. Makes perfect sense though.

[Grifman]

Pish, that’s easy. Although there were certainly reactions to those other games you mentioned, you’re right that ME3 is a very different situation. Off the top of my head, I’d guess it’s a combination of four things:

1. The exaggerated sense of entitlement that comes with playing three games that sold people a bill of goods about player agency, and kept up a steady stream of content between releases.

2. It’s EA. Everyone hates EA because it’s so easy to do.

3. A handful of very loud people driving a big band wagon, basically creating their own narrative about the game and bouncing it around in their echo chamber.

4. Writing is starting to matter more to people now that videogames are doing a better job of showcasing good writing.

   -Tom

The problem is those are mere assertions on your part. Where’s the evidence supporting those assertions? I have no doubt that you could make up reasons to support your argument, but that’s not good enough. I could make up reasons as to why you are also wrong. Where’s the beef behind your assertions?

[Knightsaber]

Good lord, this conversation again…

Keep in mind he doesn’t think the writing in the Mass Effect games is good in the first place, whether you’re talking about endings, middles, beginnings, or otherwise. It’s earnest, Mary Sue, young adult, obvious, derivative space opera with godawful dialogue told through embarrassingly clunky puppet theater. Which is fine if you’re into that sort of thing.

So, yeah, the ending is no worse than the rest of the games. Except that at least Bioware introduced a little ambiguity when it came time to shut everything down, as if they were writing grown-up sci-fi. That went over well.

-Tom, firmly seated in his rocker, thankyouverymuch

Speaking of Good Lord,

The ‘young adult, obvious, derivative space opera’ audience is probably say, exactly their target audience, don’t you think? I sincerely hope you don’t sit in that rocker waiting for ‘grown-up’ sci-fi to suddenly become video games.

Excuse me while I go put my dunce cap back on and continue liking simple to understand things, like the simpleton I obviously am due to the fact I enjoyed Mass Effect. Sheesh.

[tomchick]

The problem is those are mere assertions on your part. Where’s the evidence supporting those assertions?

Well, it’s not exactly a scientific study, is it? I’m just working on my gut instinct based on being a dude who’s really into videogames, the same as everyone else talking about the issue.

-Tom

[tomchick]

Speaking of Good Lord,

The ‘young adult, obvious, derivative space opera’ audience is probably say, exactly their target audience, don’t you think? I sincerely hope you don’t sit in that rocker waiting for ‘grown-up’ sci-fi to suddenly become video games.

Excuse me while I go put my dunce cap back on and continue liking simple to understand things, like the simpleton I obviously am due to the fact I enjoyed Mass Effect. Sheesh.

Hey, don’t take it the wrong way. I think you missed the fact that I really liked Mass Effect 3. It’s entirely possible to be critical of something without hating it. What’s more, it’s entirely possible to like things that have elements – say, the writing – that you think aren’t good. I’m just pointing out part of why I didn’t mind the ending of Mass Effect 3; namely, that it was on par with the rest of the writing.

-Tom

[Knightsaber]

Hey, don’t take it the wrong way. I think you missed the fact that I really liked Mass Effect 3. It’s entirely possible to be critical of something without hating it. What’s more, it’s entirely possible to like things that have elements – say, the writing – that you think aren’t good. I’m just pointing out part of why I didn’t mind the ending of Mass Effect 3; namely, that it was on par with the rest of the writing.

-Tom

Just so long as you don’t say you enjoyed it for the shooting. Please don’t say that.

[tomchick]

And trying to portray the people who were dissatisfied with the endings as selfish, entitled, and stupid is even more insulting than the garbage Bioware tried to pass off as the original endings in the first place. I guess if it makes you feel better to think that, knock yourself out, but it’s far from the truth.

I think you’re reading me wrong, blah, not to mention inventing things I didn’t say. You’re a classic example of why this is such a tedious topic to discuss. There’s a whole mess of angry people who just shoot straight up to 11 on the shrill scale and get stuck there.

I gave four reasons why I think the situation with Mass Effect 3 is different from the situation with KOTOR 2 and Fallout 3, both of which were also criticized for their endings. Grifman makes a very good point to bring that up. I gave four reasons that I think the other games didn’t kick up the same amount of fuss. That’s all. I’m not calling anyone stupid, I’m not dismissing anyone’s right to dislike the ending, and I’m sure not looking to get into another internet slap fight with a bunch of angry Enders again.

-Tom

[Jonathan_Crane]

I’m frankly puzzled by the amount of contempt I’m reading in Tom’s posts on this. We all like video games, some better, some worse, but presence here on Qt3 makes you at least an enthusiast if not an outright fan of the medium (or at least some parts of it). So why is it that the intense, sincere dislike of a particular game’s ending generates such an intense response in a guy who has written intelligently and perceptively about games for so long?

[tomchick]

That’s about the most erudite version of “lol u mad?” I’ve ever read. :) But I don’t get how you figure contempt and intensity.

 -Tom

[Brad_Grenz]

Wait, so only people who hate it are allowed the privilege of intense sincerity?