The audience never truly appreciates the auteur. That takes a critic. : P

I am sure you know that there are a lot of people who liked the game but not the ending. I think your outrage at the outrage is probably louder than you realize. Also, this doom and gloom about the non-traditional endings vs traditional safe endings is a bit extreme. People like safe and traditional. That is not a crime. People who want to be non-traditional, will still find it. People who want to break the mold, will still break it. This is not the end of gaming as we know it.

Bioware responded for a reason. You think it is was because the fan backlash was loud. I think it was a business decision. Someone else thinks the company was not that pleased with their own ending. No one knows for sure. We may never know for certain. I am okay with that.

Personally, I think it’s great to see this kind of passion over a game, you know those “toys” some people never grow out of, that violent thing in the closet that only gets taken out of the closet when someone needs a scapegoat.

Maybe you should have talked more about that Bioshock ending you didn’t like. I don’t feel the need to belittle someone who feels strongly about something I don’t.

No, this is your fantasy. I don’t know why but there’s a lot of posters here who equates the vocal minority who posts on forums as “popular opinion”. Let’s face it, people who posts here and other gaming forums are what we call the gaming elite. And a proportion of this gaming elite don’t like ME3’s ending and are not shy to be quite vocal about it (practically shrieking at the top of their lungs).

If you compare this group against the number of people who bought ME3, they are a very very small (but admittedly loud) minority. Look I am not against people disliking the ending and bitching about it. But I am against these people saying: “hey, we are the popular majority opinion, all these loud posts on the forum are proof that WE ARE THE PEOPLE! HURRRAAARGH!”

You need to read what I wrote again.

Tom said he was an audience member who liked the game. We have been discussing the games ending. Liking the game may or may not have anything to do with liking the ending.
There are many people who like the game, like the ending.
There are many people who like the game and not the ending.
There are many people who don’t like the game and don’t like the ending.
This includes critics and professionals who have added ME3 to their 2012 top lists, but mention they like the game, the ending not so much. 30k, 65k… =several or many. What I did not say it was a majority of any kind.

I talked about it plenty. In fact, here I am now, talking about it five years later.

What I didn’t do was sign petitions demanding it be changed, continually bring it up at the expense of other conversations about the game, make unsubstantiated grandiose pronouncements about the number of people who didn’t like the ending, and let it invalidate how I felt about the rest of the game. Basically, I didn’t let it drive the narrative about Bioshock. A sense of perspective will do that to a person.

-Tom

Didn’t Tom just address people claiming things as facts when they have no fucking clue? You have no idea how many people didn’t like the ending, and claiming that they are a “very very small minority” is your fantasy.

I always love it when people complain about something and then do exactly what they complain about. The fact that you did it all in the same post is brilliant.

30 or 65k (your own numbers) vs 4million copies sold. Against any objective measure, that meets the definition of “not many”.

You’re right I have no clue how many people don’t like the ending. But I do have a clue that the loud people posting on forums against the ending are a “very very small minority”. Also since you or anyone else don’t know either, why do this people keep claiming that they represent “many” people who dislike the ending when the most numbers that can be verified is about 65k?

Haha touche.

Those are not my numbers. I pulled them from Tom. Several, is not a majority. What are you smoking? Several is more than two buddy. A lot, is a lot. A few thousand is a lot. You missed the entire point, but then you’d have to read what i wrote to get that.

C’mon Tom. You’re better than that.

And the problem with the ending isn’t and never was that it was “non-traditional” or “mold-breaking”. Unless you consider delivering a poorly executed ending non traditional and mold-breaking, and unfortunately that’s not really true in the videogaming medium.

Well, it’s true that I was expecting resolution for plot threads that they’d introduced, “what happened next” bits for characters and world elements that I’d grown fond of, etc. It’s not like there aren’t plenty of other RPGs, including recent Bioware games, that do that to one degree or another. And I don’t see the point of introducing the warscore mechanic, making it the point of several subsidiary mechanics, tying the multiplayer into it, rewarding it for practically every quest, and then not actually doing anything with it. And narratively the war effort is such a substantial part of the game’s story that to just ignore it at the very end is a strange choice (and I don’t agree at all that the game didn’t care much about it, although it’s certainly true that it ultimately just bought time for the Catalyst to be deployed). But that’s only part of my problem with the ending. And I don’t object to my expectations not being met if they subvert them or dodge them in interesting and novel ways. I just don’t agree that that’s what Bioware did here.

I didn’t notice this until you quoted it, but where it said “need to see some Morgan’s kicking ass!” I was actually intending to write “krogans”. Damn autocorrect.

And I’d like to add that I don’t think the War Effort Integer was necessarily the point of your effort. Sure, it gave you a nice numeric value to think you were min-maxing, I guess, but the cool part was all the stuff you got to do. Watching a reaper get taken down by a monstrous thresher maw was really cool! And pointing a laser device so that orbiting ships could take out another reaper was kind of fun too! I say kind of, because that dodging got tedious. You got some battle readiness numbers for it, cool. That’s just more stats for the RPG crowd, I figure. Why obsess over it?

I think the whole problem with ME3 is that ME2 advanced almost nothing in the story, and changed the tone of the series from space opera to dumb action movie in space. It introduced mostly non critical characters who proceeded to suck up valuable space in ME3.

I think there would have been a lot fewer complaints if they spent 2 games telling ME3’s story and cut out ME2 entirely. What turned people off is that part 2 was ewoks and part 3 ended in Cloud City.

(for what it’s worth, I really enjoyed ME2 and its characters. But if you look at ME1+ME2+ME3+Original ending as a whole, it’s just bad storytelling.)

4m copies sold vs. more than a billion people with consoles and PCs: the majority obviously thought it sucked!

I don’t know if you did it, too, Nesrie but Tom may have pinned the “vast majority” term on you when I think I may have been something I wrote early on in the other thread a last March. If that’s the case, sorry.

It also answers the reason why my argument was so reductionist, Pogue. I actually wrote out a much longer post where I went through how I thought the original ending was bad on multiple levels, technical and thematic, probably due to being obviously rushed, with perhaps no pre-planned ending at all. I immediately went back and removed all but what you read there because we have been through this shit-fest once and I didn’t want to provoke/invest in a rehash. I see now it came to pass regardless, with almost no positions changed. I know mine materially hasn’t, really. Bravo for EA to at least come back and clean up the copy and paste cinematics and more fully flesh out what they were going for, though.

I actually still like talking about the game. Every time one of you folks writes about your perspective I get a little better understanding of where you’re coming from. I find it interesting that each one of you has a different take on what the problem with the ending is, and what might improve it. There’s no real monolithic mob behind the ME3 ending hate, just a bunch of people who don’t feel like they got what expected. That’s illuminating in itself, but still isn’t really telling me why everyone thinks Bioware just completely torpedoed their saga for whatever reason - but I think RickH is probably closest, it’s the internet and that’s how things are done here, I should just forget it and move on.

How so? Did you read RickH’s post? The one I was responding to? The one where he implied I’d called Mass Effect 3 “garbage”? Why do I have to keep explaining that I actually like the game, that I think it’s the strongest story of the three games, and that I think some of it is well written? Why does calling something “young adult” freak you guys out, as if you’re mortally offended at the prospect of your entertainment being on par with The Hobbit, Hunger Games, and Harry Potter?

So, no, apparently I’m not “better than that”, whatever you meant by that.

-Tom

Do I really need to search back and copy/paste your characterization of those who expected better writing to be barking up the wrong tree? Guess it’s time to open up a second QT3 tab.

Yep, idiotic. I think it’s idiotic to sign a petition demanding that Bioware rewrite the ending of the game to suit your demands for better writing quality (ha!), or less ambiguity, or more closure, or whatever stupid demands they feel the need to level at Bioware.

Maybe I just don’t have high enough standards when it comes to young adult space operas.

That’s what I was responding to. But I also happen to think the plots and story of Mass Effect 1 and 2 are mostly pedestrian.

Look, if you’re a Star Trek fan who doesn’t mind sifting through codex entries while you play a pared down shooter, I can certainly understand why you’d gravitate to Mass Effect 2 and want to heap praise onto it. But a game that appeals to your own predilections isn’t the same as a game with good writing, whether we’re talking about the larger context of world-building or the finer points of character development. Bioware’s work on Mass Effect is occasionally good, often downright embarrassing, and ultimately pretty conventional.

Can you see a trend here?

My comment was that you regarded the ME writing and story to be of generally poor quality, i.e., “garbage.” As in, its just a bunch of crappy genre fiction, your complaints about quality are as misplaced as complaining about the ambiance when one is dumpster-diving. It’s easy to argue when your premise is that the other side lacks a legitimate premise.

And a special bonus:

My argument – well, part of it, as this is a pretty big issue that we’ve all beaten to death variously – is that the ending of the Mass Effect saga isn’t just the 15 minutes that people have kvetched loudly about, often mischaracterizing it as the choice between colored beams that somehow invalidated or didn’t sufficiently acknowledge all the hundreds of choices they’d made along the way. The ending of the Mass Effect saga is the entirety of Mass Effect 3.

To repeat --that’s been my gripe with your perspective all along, that you are denying the legitimacy of the argument of the other side. I’m wrong simply because I think the pick-your-color ending was important. Never mind the points I have tried to raise about ME3’s place in a broader IP, or the concerns for managing that IP. You focus solely on the primacy of the storytelling, the story in isolation from its context – an odd premise given your prior lack of regard for the Bioware story collective’s level of craft.

If someone refuses to engage your points, all that is left is cross-mockery. That’s the reason for the film criticism japes, because all I see you willing to engage with is the viddygame version of the auteur theory and its implicit deference to singular authorship at the expense of all other concerns. By my reckoning, ME is not a singular work, and it is not the work of a single author (illustrated by all of the pointless story changes between games). Treating it as such allows you to dismiss the concerns of those focused on the impact to the broader ongoing fictional world.

That world is what I care about. As I said, I’m a sucker for a sprawling fictional universe, and I have read ME books and comics as well. I regard ME as an example of an interesting and relatively new art form – composed of interconnected fictional works – that emerged in the latter half of the last century with American soap operas and comic books. And yes, I’m going to get a bit rant-y when an example of this art form that I enjoy is botched.

I have read wwwaaayyy to many of these posts regarding the Mass Effect 3 ending, but I wonder if Tom’s biggest gripe isn’t just that people bitched so much about the ending and actually demanded a new ending. And then they were actually listened too.

As I have said before I loved the ME series, I liked ME3 even with a less than satisfying ending, but I would never have picked up the phone and screamed at the developer to redo it.

It is one thing to patch problems, it is another to “re-write” the games story.

Scuzz, never let anyone tell you that you’re not a shrewd observer.

Now back to the debate on the meaning of the word ‘garbage’!

Thanks, I think. Is that the new sarcasm font?