2981

Tom, just to provide another data point: I also thought you were being dismissive of everyone who disliked the ending, including several people at Qt3 who have been nothing but carefully articulate about what exactly they didn’t like. It does come off that you want to just stroke them all with a broad brush so you can argue against “Enders”. Maybe that’s not what you intended, but I’m just saying, I definitely got that impression from this thread, from the spoiler thread, and from the Games podcasts in which you discussed Mass Effect 3.

2982

Person A: I don’t hate people who want more gun control. I hate people who hate America.

Person B: I think we could use a little more gun control. I don’t think we should ban guns, but perhaps more background checks?

Person A: you want to ban guns! You hate America! I hate you!

2983

You see? Group B does hate freedom!

GROUP A! GROUP A! GROUP A!

2984

Thanks for the response Tom. I get where you are coming from. The vocal angry enders group as you call them, don’t create a lot of sympathy. I also get that their anger is out of proportion to the subject matter. Going over the fiscal cliff, or the trillions in debt we are amassing, it seems far more reasonable to get angry or upset over the fear we risk destroying our nations credit rating. However, in context to an entertainment game, where an angry segment of players demean the very people that created the game that they supposedly love, and demand this or that….that’s borderline childish. No arguments there.

However, when a product or service we pay for and support with money from my perception missteps (but could have just as well been a planned shift i.e EA shift to online content), it’s not beyond reasonable to want to find a way to get that feedback to the product creators, especially if that shift/misstep could result in I (and potentially others) moving away from their future products (or at least, more wary). With the lack of a feedback survey mechanism, I don’t think resorting to a petition is unreasonable. Sure it’s not as accurate as a survey in reflecting my specific concerns, but it does provide a swaag indicator to the product owners as potential reasons for shifts in customer base. As I said earlier, they have the visibility of larger picture, and will know if that shift was part of their business/artist plan strategy and therefore an acceptable loss, or was instead a missed opportunity/anylitic oversight that they now have the opportunity to address.

So I do think that there is value when it comes to petitions (or fan groups efforts fighting for a franchise they love). Sure, I often don’t completely agree with the whole message that’s being packaged by these organizers. However, if I love the franchise enough I sometimes find I have to squint at the text of a petition/fan drive and hope that the target of an effort gets the essence of the argument I’m adding my voice to. I also try to be vigilant to not add my voice to anything derisive and certainly not any “unreasonably angry mob”, but something that shows I’m a passionate fan, someone more than anything moved and attached to the labor of love they created.

I would agree with what you said that the petition I joined was a bit more vague, but at its essence it represented the message I wanted conveyed without detailing specific expectations (because, as I said if nothing else creating awareness of my disappointment was a practical and a obtainable goal). I joined the no labels movement, which before their petition went online you could essentially say the same thing. It wasn’t a specific message, but represented the essence of how I felt on that issue.

I’ve personally found that fan initiatives to save the franchise they love are often not as succinct as I would prefer, and sometimes include tangents I don’t entirely agree with, but in a medium that’s lacks any type of feedback or quality survey mechanic where I can articulate my direct concern and have it reviewed by the service it pertains to…. I don’t see much choice. You have to compromise slightly and become part of a larger narrative, if you want to get a shared message heard and seen by the product service you are attached to.

There are exceptions of course; I loved being part of the NUTS campaign for Jericho! It was more implied than a specific dialogue, and it was plain fun (and worked for a time)! I was heartened that the while the campaign I joined to save Firefly failed, it ultimately lead to a great movie. So I do think fan efforts can, and do have a meaningful effect, again especially with the lack of any other established feedback mechanic.

I’ve said a lot here, and I know I can get long winded, but I also wanted to circle back and clarify that the reason for joining the specific petition I endoresed was almost exactly related to that blurb I quoted, I loved the game but the quality of the ending was not the quality promised, it was no even as strong as some other parts of the series, and (for me) was a determent to wanting to play it again (i.e. I’d hoped many multiple times to experience the different rpg narrative goals/themes that were prevent throughout the series).

Ultimately I had wanted/expected the series ending to reflective of the game goals and narrative choices I was making during the game, but I knew that would be impossible with what they created without massive cost/effort. The best I could reasonably hope for now is that they might be willing to hear and address fan feedback and hopefully craft a more generalized ending that felt consistent to the narrative flow I had experienced in (most) of the rest of the game. However, in the end I might just have to settle for the more practical and a obtainable goal to inform them that this product was enough of a disappointment that it was moving me to downgrade their rating as a supporter from auto pre order, to where most game titles sit for me, wait for reviews and a sale before considering. Fortunately, I felt heard I got the best I could reasonably hope for, an ending that felt consistent to the narrative flow I had experienced throughout the rest of the series.

I appreciate that they did that, but truthfully, they still got downgraded for me. I will wait for reviews and sales, even for Mass Effect 4.

2985

Well said David. I confess, I only had limited time to play the game when it came out, so it took me months to finish Mass Effect 3. During that time, I heard about the petition through the Qt3 podcast where Tom made fun of the people involved, and I have to admit, I found myself also laughing at the idea of signing a petition to change the ending of a game, no matter how much you dislike it. Plus at the time, as I was making my way through the game, I was just loving it so much. The developers earned a trust from me during the course of that game. Even though I’d heard about the controversy, I just couldn’t even conceive of not liking the ending to a game that I thought so far was masterful in being everything I was hoping it would be during the course of playing the previous two games.

Well, the egg was on my face when I got to the end. That supreme confidence of the authors of this game that I developed during the course of Mass Effect 3 felt misplaced. And I have to admit, that if I’d made my way through the game faster, I’d probably have joined you in trying to voice my dissatisfaction in some way. One thing we’ve seen in this thread is that even the people who are dissatisfied with the ending don’t really agree on what would be better. It is completely ridiculous to try to sum it up as saying we wanted happy ending, which in my particular is exactly the opposite of the truth. So yeah, I probably would have signed a dissatisfaction petition too if I had made it through the game faster.

With that said, I can never be sure now if I’d have been dissatisfied with the ending if I’d finished it slower. If the ending DLC was part of the game by the time I got to the end, I mean. I suspect that I would be satisfied with it. It still isn’t ideal, but at least it feels finished, and not sloppily put together anymore. What did you think of it?

2986

Hey Rocky, I can recall having a very similar reaction to the entire ruckus. In fact prior to completing the game I couldn’t conceive of a situation where I would be unhappy with the game, much less consider signing a petition of dissatisfaction. I played blissfully away, certain that opinions like Tom’s would be more along the lines of where my experience would fall into at the end of the day.

Then the end happened, I was for lack of a better term, disconcerted. I was ready to restart the game, certain that if I had chosen a different path the ending would make more sense, and as a result of playing to my characters goals I had in-advently chosen one of the poorer endings.

On a lark I looked up some info on the endings to see if in fact I had chosen poorly from the available options. Then I discovered, they were essentially all the same ending, with essentially different color coding and possibly an extra scene (and possibly an extra scene like Shepard’s chest armor taking a breath). I was like WTF! Color coded endings poor executed ending as choices felt like slap, to all the love and craft that went before it!

I will admit, I was also one of those people that grew to like the idea of the choices at the end being a poorly constructed attempt to show Shepard being seduced by indoctrination. If that had been more cleanly executed, THAT would have been a suprise twist, elevating the series to a masterpiece!

To answer your question though, I played again with the extended ending and the Leviathan DLC, and the ending was sooo good, so seamless to the rest of play, I could barely remember what I originally disliked (except missing the promised feature talked about many times of truly unique endings depending on our actions). It flows seamlessly and even the starchild sequence didn’t feel like an abrupt surprise, as new hints are dropped cryptically a few times in play, specifically during the Leviathan story line (and a new entry in the codec). Mass Effect 3, was for me, transformed from a bitter ending into nearly classic I wanted it to be, and a series I suspect I will replay a few times (though certainly less times on dropping the robust ending promises).

2987

Well as I never signed shit, I honestly couldn’t say Tom. But I’m failing to see how labeling those who did as ‘Enders’ is either ‘doing them a favor’ or enhancing the discussion in truth.

How is public criticism a bad thing exactly Tom? If it wasn’t for fan feedback we’d still be lumbered with the terrible inventory system and lacklustre combat of the first game still.

As regards better narrative maybe with their next title Bioware might take a leaf out of Telltales book and figure out what their games ending is going to be at the beginning of the process so they know where they need to end up rather than leaving it to the last few months to come up with something. A radical proposal I know, but not without some degree of merit to it surely?

2988

I’m not insisting at all. But I maintain that you can’t find any such post and if you go back and look for one, you’ll see that the problem is all your own. I have said all along that I have no problem with someone not liking the ending of a game. It’s ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

-Tom
2989

Which isn’t the goal. Until they own it (cf. Obamacare, Tea Party), it’s a term of ridicule for a group of people who deserve ridicule. :) If you’re in that group, I apologize if it’s hurting your feelings. As I’ve suggested before, you should feel free to come up with a name for those of us who were mostly content with the ending. Colored Beamers? Star Children? Unenders? Sorry that I can’t be of more help.

No one is saying “public criticism” or “fan feedback” is a bad thing. Heck, it’s basically what I do for a job. But there’s a clear distinction between “fan feedback” and the Enders’ sense of self-entitled outrage. That in and of itself isn’t a bad thing. The bad thing is when it works.

-Tom
2990

What is this bad thing that happened when it worked though?

Some of the Enders were crazy emotional people, but you on the other hand are also going over the deep end in your belief that this single expansion of the endings, not even changing the endings is some precedent that story telling is going to be squashed and done by forum polls via fans.

The actual outcome of this whole thing resulted in nothing more than a better fleshed out ending, not a changed ending.

I find this whole fiasco a good thing. Other developers were watching, it was high profile and caught the attention of likely every dev out there. The end result will be game devs will have an ending in mind for their games, and realize the endings are very important, not something to be skimped on the 11th hour or to meet a financial quarter.

I see the result as more care will be put into game endings and writing. Others see it as gaming as an art is ruined and all game will now be written by forum polls.

2991

I’d like to believe the result was ultimately more of the former, than the later. I see the irony, and realize my actions could inadvertently contribute to it sliding into the latter. Anytime you influence/change something you run the risk of over correcting to far another way, or destroying elements you valued. It’s a risk, but I think in this case the net result was (very) positive.

2992

Nor have I or would I suggest such. I’m not about to dictate to you what you think or feel about a subject, because that would be silly. What I am suggesting is that you have written things that, singly or in aggregate, convey the impression that you do. And that when one person misunderstands what you mean, they’re on their own, but when a bunch of people misunderstand what you mean or get an erroneous impression, there may be clearer ways to say what you want to say.

A quick quote from a front page article you wrote that, while in the context of your other posts, I can see being specifically about your so-called “Enders”, doesn’t necessarily read that way without that context:

Interestingly, I also reminded myself of this part of your front page review, which suggests that at least at one time you agreed with me and many of the folks here dissatisfied over the ending more than I had recalled:

Mind you, I do agree that it’s a pity that Mass Effect 3’s public narrative has become about the ending, and not the excellent game that precedes it. Even as I keep contributing to the wrong end of the discussion. Gonna try to stop now.

So, how 'bout them Rachni?

2993

The greater precedent set is that companies can be bullied into submission if a handful of self-entitled “fans” are loud enough. This is one of the many episodes where the fans of a game are its worst enemy.

I’d love to think the end result of all this will be better endings, but I know enough about how games are made to know better. My guess is that companies will cover their asses with the safest possible endings – obvious, tidy, with hobbits jumping on beds and “where are they now” montages and so forth – that offend the least number of people. You can bet that’s exactly what’s going on at EA now.

-Tom
2994

God, that’s a bleak outlook. I really hope you’re wrong. Isn’t the fact that they didn’t back down on the content of the ending in ME3 an indicator that things aren’t headed the way you think they are though? They might have fixed some continuity errors and such, but they kept the essential content of the ending the same.

Even though I had a gut negative reaction to the ending, I still thought it was really ballsy of them to end the game with such… finality. They ended it in a way that made me never want to replay the game series again, which was (in my opinion) something they purposely wanted to evoke with that ending. All the way through the first Mass Effect and the second, and 99% of Mass Effect 3, I kept wanting to start all over from the first game and make different choices and see how the game changed. I wasn’t going to do it, obviously, I don’t have time to replay games, just like most people don’t, but the need to see how things could have played out differently was strong. But by making the ending the way they did, I thought it was really brave to take away that feeling from the gamer. Whether I liked the end or not, I still think that was a brave decision, to effectively kill the desire to replay in the player. EA couldn’t have been happy with that surely. They’d want to milk the franchise further. That had to have been solely a choice made by Bioware.

2995

Look, the ending of Mass Effect 3 is a heated issue for a lot of folks, because many of us care about it enough to talk about it a year later. A lot of folks disagree with my basic opinion, and since this is the internet, some of them are going to say whatever they can to discredit it. That’s just how it works. You might as well champion Murbella’s assertion that I hate RPGs with stories, RickH’s assertion that I think ME3 is garbage, or Jonathan Crane’s weird comment that I’m above this. Those are equally ridiculous statements.

But more to the point, you should know by now that it’s an absolutely ridiculous to suggest that I “have a problem with people who don’t like the ending of Mass Effect 3”. It’s a specious accusation no matter how many people make it. The fact that you feel that way is entirely your own baggage.

In all the years (?) that you and I have been talking about games, here, on the front page, in all the time I’ve done podcasts, in all the stuff I’ve written, do you think I have a problem with anyone who has a particular opinion about a piece of entertainment? Seriously? Because I know what people who just want to score internet points will say. But do you, malkav11, really feel that way? I don’t think you do. And I think you know it’s a baseless accusation.

Sigh. Does no one read bylines anymore? Because I didn’t write that. Tim James wrote the Qt3 review of Mass Effect 3 and I hate to think that he’s not getting recognition for it.

-Tom
2996

The problem with your suggestion, Rock8man, is that it assumes there was a single focused complaint about the ending. There wasn’t. There was only a seething mass of angry people signing petitions that said a bunch of different things, often poorly if davidf’s quoted petition is any indication.

Yeah, I really admired that as well. So many franchises put such a premium on being open-ended, and it feels like such a corporate decision, so much like TV series or movies split into multiple parts or left open for sequels. I love games – stories! – that are discrete narrative packages, and I love how it felt like a door closed irrevocably in Mass Effect 3.

I know that’s not the substance of some folks’ complaints about the ending, but it was interesting to read in the petition that davidf linked how Take Back Mass Effect felt the ending affected the series “replay ability” [sic].

-Tom

2997

And for the third or fourth time (excellent example of what I am talking about here - I’ve specifically said more than once that I’m not making this accusation, yet apparently that’s not the impression you’re getting), I am not accusing you of having a problem with people who dislike the ending. You’ve said you don’t, and I have no reason to disbelieve you. That doesn’t mean the things you post always read that way. And that’s all the further I want to take this particular argument, if that’s okay. Arguing about what you said in an argument is a level of metargument that seems particularly fruitless.

Sigh. Does no one read bylines anymore? Because I didn’t write that. Tim James wrote the Qt3 review of Mass Effect 3 and I hate to think that he’s not getting recognition for it.

-Tom

Oh, whoops. So many of the reviews on the front page are yours I don’t think to check. Sorry, Tim! Great summation of some of my issues with the ending anyhow!

2998

Does anyone remember Tom complaining about the slippery slope of developers caving to customer demands in the Sword of the stars 2 thread? I don’t remember it, but i likely just missed it.

The fact of the matter is most of the time when companies do things like this they are not doing it as a selfless act, they’re doing it as a long term strategy to restore (perceived or real) lost goodwill.

2999

We will have to disagree.

I could imagine they knew from the start that the ending was kinda bad and rushed, they cringed, held their breath and hope it would slide through.

That is the subject, you think it was perfect(?), you think the devs thought it was perfect, and any change was an assault on their creativity.

I think they knew it wasn’t perfect, they got called on it and said yeh, we knew this was coming, give us some time to do it right. Its no biggy, they got a chance to do it right. Remember the expanded ending didnt’ have Hobbits jumping on beds or rainbows and unicorns, it was the same endings with more background.

If they were caving to fans, the Hobbits jumping on beds wouldn’t have been burned to death in a fire. The “where are they now” wouldn’t have been a dead SHep under some rubble or the teamates being stuck on a planet forever.

The caving to fans never happened, all that happened is the devs likely got to create what they meant to do in the first place before the deadline screwed them.

3000

If the next Mass Effect ending suck ass, I am gonna blame the Enders.