3021

I liked the endings of The Sopranos and BSG… but ME3 was a rushed copout. There was no foreshadowing of a Godlike starchild and some cycilcal birth death robot human evolution thingy. Its just a cheap quickly made McEnding since EA wanted money 1st quarter 2012 to appease the shareholders and investors stock to go up trust EA SWTOR isnt bad and cash out etc blah.

What REALLY sucks about the ME3 ending is that it ruins the whole feel of the universe that was carefully and lovingly built since the first ME. The idea of any spinoff/sequel/prequel will be overshadowed by the STUPID starboy God, imo.

Anyway, TV and games are different mediums anyway Tom!

3022

If i stopped watching BSG multiple times after getting tired of the crazy religious, prophet stuff over the main character, will i find it worth it to make it to the end?

3023

I was think about this. changes to shows based on audience reactions happens all the time in TV. Jack Shephard was supposed to be killed off in the pilot of Lost, but kept because the test audiences loved him and became the primary lead in the show! In Babylon 5 the Jeffrey Sinclair was replaced with John J. Sheridan, because the network didn’t think O’Hare could sustain the show, despite the fact that JMS had written the 5 year saga around him! TV in particular is littered with these examples of shifts to the shows based on outside influences especially audience reaction. In the named cases above, those changes were actually for the better! I’m sure you could name even more that weren’t but, the point is audience influence of writers and creative efforts is a ship that sailed out of port long long ago, and not to the complete negative determent as Tom suggests.

This is exploring his arguement to the impact. I still hope the impact we actually had in this case, was simply to improve the quality of the narritive, and not ultimately change the story (which is what Bioware stated they were just delivering, just fleshing out and updated the existing narrative, not changing ANYTHING for the extended ending content they provided, fyi), but even if it was the latter, its not likely to be as catastrophic as Tom suggests, based on that exact same situations on the much more mature silver screen medium.

3024

I have never heard anyone say before, “Thank you executives for interfering in the creative process! You have made the end product so much better!” First time for everything, I suppose.

Also, focus testing is a totally different topic than what is being discussed here, with its own set of positives and negatives. Let’s not muddy the waters unnecessarily.

3025

Those are all very different from the Mass Effect 3 situation. None of the changes in production to a TV show retroactively changed what was already aired. This is more like the ending of Lost being re-aired a couple of weeks later with changes because the fans hated the original ending.

Tom’s point is that, love it or hate it, the ending should’ve stayed the way it was. Because EA/Bioware bowed to audience pressure, they compromised the story to appease people. Something he feels no writer should do.

3026

That’s only partially true, there has been more than one test screening that has resulted in a complete rewrite of a TV show or even a movie ending, before general release. So it does happen, and happens specifically to audience reactions. It’s just not generally done after general release…

I’ll skip mentioning all the directors cuts and special edition releases, because those are presumably already within the directors/writer’s vision of the story. Despite more than a few these do, in fact, change the endings.

3027

Good lord this thread just doesn’t end

3028

Test audience screenings are where you are asking for audience input. That’s the point. No director likes it. It’s part of the Hollywood business. Tom specifically said he hates the focus-group style stuff and bemoaned the future of gaming in which we just get middle-of-the-road audience tested and approved stories.

3029

The waters were already muddy. from my perspective. I’m simply pointing out that the arguement it’s never happened, and never should have been allowed to happen, and the people that argued to make it happen are worthy of scorn! That assesement is not entirely accurate. This type of activility happens already, the specific case of ME3, has some semi unique elements, but nothing that happened was unprecedented.
I would flip to Tom’s concerns, if we started to see a rash of these types of fan-- do it my way or else, or if in fact Bioware had added a happy dancing unicorn ending. I didnt want that, I don’t think most of the fans wanted that, I most of all wanted some more clarity, and a ending that flowed better and consistent with the rest of the epic trilogy. Sort of like the Blade Runner enhanced edition.

3030

Was this level of dislike/hatred/disgust/frustration shown for the end of Fallout 3 when it first came out? I am always a few years behind new games (especially back then in pre-computer upgrade days) and don’t remember seeing any of this type of thing later. The ending was changed in a DLC later.

3031

OMG. People hated the Fallout 3 ending. Especially since it didn’t make any damn sense if you brought the mutant companion who was immune to the rads.

3032

I thought it was great! Made perfect sense! I can’t believe they changed it and fucked with the artistic license! Blah blah! :D

3033

The Starchild is fine but it’s the Choice the Starchild gives that is stupid, and that this choice is tied to war assets at all makes almost no sense. But grousing because one doesn’t receive a completely happy ending is bad form, and that is what BioWare gave fans. Instead of a completely changed, if not “ended” galaxy, we get a galaxy where everything is happy and better than ever. Instead of Joker and EDi smiling in a sunrise, we get a narrator telling how wonderful the future you, the Shepard, helped make.

So in short:

War Assets: Huge slight of hand and a completely nonsensical, gamey thing tied to Multiplayer on purpose to force ME3 on the micro transaction gravy train.

Star Child: Controversial plot twist

Red Blue Green ending cutscenes: Disappointing and felt rushed to market.

Normandy running away: Nice cinema, not narrative

All Mass Effect Relays blown to oblivion / Galaxy in shambles / everyone dead: Fans angry they didn’t get cookie, but bold and meaningful narrative choice

3034

I hate to continue this annoying topic, but this particular rehash seems to have forgotten the business and creative realities the community discovered after release. We heard a rumor that the team struggled to get an ending done on time, and they were overruled by the lead. Of course we know EA wants to get the product out on time. It always seemed to me like a software development problem, not a creative thing. That’s probably what blurs the lines and makes it difficult to compare to other media.

I post this to explain rather than push a particular angle.

3035

Davidf, you recognize that a focus group is a solicitation for opinion by the creators of a game, movie, tv show, whatever? It implies a certain flexibility in purpose and execution by the creators, regardless of whether that’s always done for good or ill. I don’t know if ME3 was ever put through a focus group but the ending revision was well after any such thing would have happened. It does not apply here.

3036

Ok that’s a different argument. You dislike something that’s a industry standard in some sectors, and because it dillutes artistic integrity, and effects the qaulity of the final product. There is truth to that, and i certainly think we should all fight submitting to focus-group as a standard practice in the industry. On the other hand, its not completly without value and there can be a place for it.

Sort of like TV dinners, most of us want fresh meals and ingridents and the idea of processed food disgusts us. Many of us think processed food is unhealthy, but I’d never suggest we eliminate it entirely, some people have reasons for wanting it, and it gives them value to their specific situation.

3037

Anyway the real question is Dragon Age 3. Bioware seemed to basically just ask “what do you want to see?” when they announced it was in production. The franchise itself doesn’t have a clear MacGuffin or goal and this could end in bitter tears and worse a forgettable, cobbled together game where they feed fans whatever they think they want to see. Dragons, boobs, emo relationships, boss battles and happy endings? Whatever you want kids.

3038

Hey Pogoe. I was going to guess tha they didnt (mainly based on the lack of reason on Normandy in hyperspace than enything else- that seemed narrative stumble to me), but i honestly don’t know either. Bioware had the bigger picture, and made the choices the made for whatever reasons they had, and my point way up thread was that we and other fans were trying to voice, it didnt quite add up to us. Fans voicing a concern isn’t a breach of ettiquite.

They ultimately could choose to respond to our concerns in at least a few ways.

A) explain the percieved gaps, so that those of us that didnt get the artistic vision could enjoy the intent
b) add clarifying content to the ending
c) change the ending
d) ignore us

All of them were viable options. I would have been fine with either a or b (which they did). C and D less so.

I think Fallout 3 ending change, was honeslty a more egregious change. It was a actual change to the ending, i.e. happy dancing unicorn ending.

3039

I would propose that delivering a petition demanding that Bioware change the ending to address your dissatisfaction falls more on the ultimatum end of the customer feedback continuum.

3040

Yea, the petition I supported was vaguer, and more general than that. Essentially, help us understand what you meant, or update the ending so its more clear, but as it stands we are not happy. I noticed the language of the group narrative i joined changed slightly later (and agreed less with those changes), but it still had those base elements in there. It also said we were ultimately fans of and supported the series.

I know there were petitions in there that were whiney and rude, and to those I agree with Tom, they were childish. The one I supported seemed the more adult of the intent, even if the grammar was horrible (though appropriate considering my challenges there).