The problem with your point, Tom, is that even saying your decisions in previous games pay off across the entire game is, well, moderately true at best. If I killed off the Rachni queen in ME1, the Rachni still come back under Reaper control. If Mordin died in ME2 (which was relatively more common than losing others due to the fact that he was the most fragile member of the crew, I think), does the genophage mission play out much differently, or is there just a not-Mordin there? What about if you killed Wrex? Do the krogan still help the Turians out?

Now, I understand that there’s limitations here – if you have to account for every possibility, then your development cost starts getting to be ludicrous. For me, where I was the paragon of paragons and tried to save everyone, let the Rachni go, etc, etc, the story did reflect a lot of my choices because almost every mission ended up involving someone I cared about, which really made my decisions stand out – and that’s great. Someone who was more ruthless though might be a little put out though that killing the Rachni queen didn’t get them anything, or that destroying the genophage cure data didn’t seem to matter. The one place where it does pay off, and where I was both pleasantly surprised and mildly annoyed at my choices, was with the quarians and the geth – if you had simply destroyed the heretics instead of reprogramming them, getting the geth and quarians to cooperate is actually much easier (but it does make the geth weaker in terms of war assets). More things like that would really have helped the game.

However, I don’t think it would have been that hard to make the game take into account more of your actions, but ironically, I think the easiest place to have taken those actions into account would have been the ending, in a single long conversation with Harbinger or whatever. If you do that, you only have to rewrite that one ending and instead of people getting soured on the rest of the game, everyone looks back on the rest of the game and goes “huh, I guess that stuff mattered more than it seemed.” The problem is that now, from basically the time you leave Anderson’s camp to the end of the final cutscene, the only difference, and your only agency in the game, is which cutscene you want to see at the end.

Think about the first game. You go to Ilos, jump through the Conduit, and you get to choose whether the Council lives or dies (which sure seemed like a big choice). You beat fight your way up through the Citadel and then you have a conversation with Saren, and it is possible to get him to kill himself; even if you don’t at least you get to confront him. Then you beat Sovereign-possessed Saren and you get a nice bit of denouement where you pick humanity’s first representative on the Council. That’s some fairly strong stuff there. Even just in terms of exposition, I think the conversation with Vigil is still one of the most heartrending scenes in almost any game I’ve played.

Now let’s look at the second game. As soon as you hit the Omega 4 relay, your choices in the rest of the game start to pay off. If you didn’t have the shields, or the guns, or the new armor, pow, people die. Then you have to decide who does what on the Collector base – choose poorly, and bam, someone dies. If you don’t have people’s loyalty? Bam, more people dying because of your choices. Then, you beat the stupid terminator baby and you get to choose whether to destroy the Collector base or not (another choice that seemed pretty major at the time but which doesn’t pay off either way in ME3).

Now let’s look at ME3. From the time you leave Anderson’s camp, the only thing you get to make any decisions in is the conversation with Anderson and the Illusive Man on the Citadel (still not quite sure how either of them got there, honestly) which happens while you are literally being mind controlled by the Illusive Man, and ultimately has little relevance on the ending as far as I can tell. Then you get your conversation with the deus ex machina and pick your cutscene. That’s it.

I am pretty sure ME3 won at least a couple GOTY awards. And rightly should have. But that doesn’t mean the ending isn’t annoyingly weak.

Somewhere in this thread is a link to a story where the guy awards it the GOTY while complaining about the ending.

What GotY lists did you see? It was nominated in numerous site lists and even won the GI overall GotY.

Grif: In a game infused with so much player agency and based upon the endings available in ME2, it was a huge letdown to not have that available. Given how much of the game experience differs from person to person and playthough to playthough (who lives and who dies, and how), I don’t so why it couldn’t have been an option. Players wanting ultimate sacrifice could have gotten what they wanted, players who wanted Dark machine god ending could have gotten what they wanted, and players who wanted Starjammer with blue babies could have gotten what they wanted. Unlike almost any other medium, the numbers of outcomes available in the game are only limited to time and storage: Why not take advantage of that? Call canon what you will and let each slice of the audience have what they want.

Black Isis: These are great posts.

I completely agree with the consensus that 95% of ME3 is GOTY. That the ending falling so short of its potential and as the real end, stains the players’ perspectives around the rest of the game is such a shame.

I’m glad someone is reading my walls of text at least. :)

My mistake, I didn’t obsessively Google GOTY lists until I found it. It’s more entertaining to read this thread than try to post in it anyway.

(PS the ending sucked)

Black Isis, it’s best to think of most of those choices as grind-investments. Then divide the real choices into categories: transparent binary (Kaiden-Ashley), table lookup (ME2 finale), and genuinely challenging (Rachni, genophage, Collector base, ME3 ending).

The last group had the best “choices.” You have to separate that from consequences. Those were uneven throughout the series for various reasons: lack of writing resources to cover them, the story simulation that made it hard to tell what impact you had, or poor writing in general.

Personally I care less about consequences than making tough choices with no clear answer (A or B rather than right or wrong). When your choice changes from side quest grind or looking up the answer in a strategy guide, it’s not much of a choice to me. But it blows some people away. I talked about this in the review. To each their own I guess.

Tim, you’re right that the choices where there’s no obvious good answer and you’re forced to actually think about it are the best – the genophage, the heretic question in ME2, the Collector Base, the Rachni – but those are also the hardest ones to pull off correctly and tend to be the ones that Bioware can’t really pull off the actual payoff from them because the answers should be so different. It’s why if you killed the Rachni in ME1 that whole plotline in ME3 seems like a cheat. “Really, I killed the queen just to prevent this kind of jackassery, and it did nothing? Great.”

What I’m saying is that some kind of player agency, some kind of feedback that your choices make a difference, is important to any kind of game, and any part of a game, because otherwise you’re just watching a movie and you feel powerless. And that’s what the end of Mass Effect 3 does to you.

Why couldn’t they have done more like ME2, where certain events happen and if you did one thing or another, your route got that much harder? The only place this really shows up is in the quarian/geth plotline with whether you destroyed the heretics or overwrote them. I would love to have seen that kind of stuff everywhere, or at least in the ending.

Really, I always felt that the redemption angle was kind of tacked on. At least it felt that way. I still say my point stands in that not everything in life has to lead to an end result. Sometimes, you change your mind in the end. Let’s face it, in a battle against giant monsters, maybe Shepard really was just a bit player, who, despite being a hero, just wasn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things, and so, no the outcome really doesn’t rely that strongly on him.

Obviously it’s not every one, but you asked for one and I gave it to you. If you insist, i can provide more examples. You also highlighted the part that emphasized your position but ignored the part the emphasizes mine… there is indeed an A B or C ending to this trilogy. Also, endings matter to me. I don’t insist that they matter to you.

Tacked on…to what? You can think what you like I guess, but I think most people would disagree.

Yes, not everything in life has to lead to an end result. But if a story is just about people going through life as it happens around them it’s probably not going to be all that compelling a story. It certainly isn’t a good fit to the grandiose space opera that Bioware has been setting up for five years. Since the series began you’ve been the big damn hero of the galaxy, and now you’re just someone there by happenstance? That would probably work for some games, but it is a poor fit to Mass Effect.

It depends on what you consider the objective of a discussion. If you think the objective is persuasion, perhaps you’re right. But if you think the objective is an exchange of ideas, and people elaborating and articulating their ideas in light of other people’s ideas, it’s not the least bit pointless. Don’t extrapolate too much from certain posters!

As for me, I’ve seen enough of an exchange of ideas in this thread that I’m happy to keep participating in it and reading it. Black Isis’ comments, for instance. upon actually discovering the ending. Davidf explaining why he signed a petition. Grifman breaking down the general sentiment on the Bioware forum as he sees it. It’s not just a pointless argument. It’s people talking about things they care deeply about, and sometimes disagreeing.

Of course, if you’re just talking about me calling someone a name out of frustration, well, then yeah, you’re absolutely right that it’s pointless. But you don’t get to 24,000 posts without occasional bouts of pointlessness. :)

-Tom

See that’s where I diagree with most people. Most people want a happiness and sunshine ending (and they bloody got it in the Extended Cut). I want something different. And I got the non-happiness nor sunshine in the original ending. The original ending, no matter the colour, is that space travel becomes difficult afterwards, and the Normandy crews are pretty much stuck in the planet they crash landed (hence the Buzz Aldrin cameo).

In fact the original sad ending is growing on me ALL THE TIME. The musical theme of ME3 you hear time and time again from Clint Mansell is exactly that: it ended not with a bang but in a whimper, but that’s life. That’s sad.

Whether Bioware is right to inject some much needed realism into what some considered as wish-fulfilment sci-fi is debatable, but I would argue that Bioware always have the intention that ME universe isn’t Star Wars like magical sci-fi, but gritty sci-fi like BSG. The fact that they never made TIM or Saren an out-and-out villain is evidence to that. TIM and Saren were meant to be deluded and manipulated, not bad. Even the Reapers, right at the very end, were meant to be a rogue AI rather than bad. Again whether the last 15 mins was the right time to impart that impression is debatable.

Let me also come out and say I think Fallout: New Vegas is a better example of gritty sci-fi than any ME game. In terms of production value the ME series wins hands down though.

That’s actually a good point you’re making. Apparantly I’m so focussed on the discussion itself that I don’t see the exchange of ideas anymore. Which is weird, considering I don’t even participate in the discussion, nor care which side will ‘win’. Hmmm, I’ll have to refocus a bit I guess. Thanks for pointing that out!

I think it could have worked - I can think of at least one other (non-videogame) series where the big “prophesied hero” turns out just to have been in the right place at the right time and have had the spirit to keep fighting.
name of that series

Harry Potter

But it’s certainly not the ending I was looking for and Bioware would have had to execute it really really carefully, something that certainly didn’t seem to be the case with the ending they did give us.

I wish people would stop saying this. The only time I’ve actually seen anyone complain about not getting a super-positive ending is in sarcastic webcomics making fun of Enders. I’m sure there are some goofballs that did want it, but I don’t think it’s fair to say “most” and toss out the concerns of people that disliked the ending of ME3.

My complaints had nothing to do with whether or not Sheperd flew off into a rainbow at the end.

I am pretty sure that I said I would have been perfectly happy with a Pyrrhic victory ending if it had made sense. I just think that the way the options were presented was very weak and none of them made particularly much sense. I do think it would make the struggle of the three games rather pointless and change the tone a great deal if that was the best ending you could hope for. Certainly you could have a Pyrrhic victory (quite literally, I suppose, if Shepard dies and then isn’t there to deal with the Reapers in the Arrival or ME3) in ME2, but that was the worst case scenario.

My bigger issue was that the end wasn’t tied to the rest of the game much at all except through racking up numbers in your war assets; for the end of an epic story, you need to have an ending that reflects the rest of it. It was especially galling when none of the endings really meshed thematically with the rest of the game – none of them were really about self-sacrifice, the right of sentient life to live freely, the value of a diverse culture, or anything else that was touched on by the major plotlines of the previous 90+ hours of gameplay. I didn’t need a happy-happy-joy-joy ending, I just wanted one that didn’t feel like the end of Poochy.

Edit: Also, Soma, that was my other problem with the Illusive Man in this game. His descent from mysterious figure of dubious moral value to moustache twirling villain went pretty fast, considering ME3 is supposedly only 6 months after ME2. That annoyed me. And I thought Saren was a good villain too, until I made the mistake of reading the first Mass Effect book, where they reveal that he was always a pretty fucked up sadist asshole…but I don’t hold that against the first game. You’re right that Saren and the Illusive Man in ME2 were much more gray area antagonists, which is all the more reason I’m annoyed by how weak the antagonists in ME3 were.

I also had no interest in a happy ending, in fact I would have probably would have been fine with the existing ending with a simple offcial explanation (i.e. if i understood the ending).

As it was, and has been pointed out a few times, the ending had some serious continuality issues that made the ending feel disjointed (at least for me). I felt the new ending took care of explaining those disjointed elements, and didn’t change the essence of the ending (although the man and child epiloge conversation was cut). I also appreciated that the new endings distinguished themselves, instead of the original endings that only distinguished themselves by their color coding and maybe 1 extra scene snippit they included. I felt this was the most tragic misstep by the developers in the original ending to such a deep and rich narrative franchise.

FYI, there is a happy ending mod out there, when I play again when the citadel DLC gets released, i have no interest in trying it, despite the apparent quality of it (i did finally youtube it).

The red “victory” is exactly that in the original, while the green or blue “victory” is decidedly NOT about freedom, liberty and those big “paragon” ideas. How can forcible change to genetic code of all living things or giving one wo/man control over all Reapers about respecting lives and freedom? And red “victory” is EXACTLY about self-sacrifice: do you expect Shepard to LIVE after exploding the very space station s/he was standing on? S/he was signing her own death warrant, and at the very end, you see Shepard not limping to pull the trigger. S/he was forceful. Determined. Fearless.

Bravo.

I thought the whole point of Shepard slowly dragging his/her battered body to any one of the super final choice was to give you time to REFLECT, to give you time to digest. This is the end and you know it. Yes Bioware guided you to the end, but the end is about you and your thoughts. What are your thoughts? E.g. What would happen next? Or whether Shepard is doing the right thing? Or whether YOU are doing the right thing? For the right reasons? (i.e. For all those “paragon” ideals or you just do whatever you want as a renegade?) There is SOME urgency, because the light show you are seeing above isn’t exactly fireworks, it was ships blowing up. But there is time for second, third, or fourth guessing your decision. Take your time. (I think someone else mentioned this already.)

That I thought was intentional on Bioware’s part, and it wasn’t really apparent to me until the second playthrough. You spent the last hour slugging your way to the missile truck, and then there is that seemingly endless wave of monsters (I really get that the final wave was supposedly to be super super tough. I played on insanity and it was really by-the-skin-of-teeth stuff…) Then came the rush to elevator, which is pretty much a interactive montage. The pace is slowing. Then came the confrontation with TIM, which is very similar to the confrontation with Saren (intentionally). The pace is slowed to a trickle. Then the deus ex machina, and the long walk. Now you were just crawling, literally. So thematically I would argue it was fitting that when the end comes it is not with a bang, but quietly and slowly. The game was slowing right towards the super final end.

Going back to Telefrog’s complaint: unless AC Nielson decides to do a scientific polling of “what ME3 players want from the ending”, I think we just have to go by the general sentiments we get from people around and outside of here. And the overwhelming impression I got is that people wanted more of the same from ME1 and ME2 endings, only bigger and better. But then my understanding of ME1 and ME2 endings is that they were pretty much happiness and sunshine all round. Shepard emerged from the wreckage! BOOYAH! Shepard jumped safely to the Normandy and rode off to the sunset/nuclear explosion! BOOYAH. They were pretty much Hollywood blockbuster endings. So, accordingly, the ending to the ME3 according to the ME3 players, given the previous 100 hours, would be similarly a happines and sunshine ending: Shepard saved the galaxy from the Reapers! Mostly singlehandedly but sometimes with a little help from his/her friends! (i.e. James Vegas’ version of the event). BOOYAH.

I don’t mean to mock those people, because I WAS one of them. I WANT BIGGER AND BETTER! Then I played ME3 again, and now I “get” the original ending. And I like the original ending much better.

A final analogy: I get that mostly people want ME3 ending to be like The Avengers (happiness and sunshine!), but instead they got The Dark Knight.