I completely do not agree that Red is a selfish choice. It is the LEAST BAD choice of the three for a paragon. Red mandates Shepard to kill off all AIs so organics can live. However, if you count AIs such as Geths and Reapers as lives and therefore have equal value as organic sentients, then Red is basically asking Shepard to trade one bunch of lives for another. But the latter is a significantly LARGER number than the former. If Shepard doesn’t kill the Reapers (and the collateral damage, Geths), many many many more, organic or inorganic lives will die in future cycles: remember Reapers will keep doing it, every 50,000 years. And remember they have zero need for any inorganic lives like Geths who aren’t slaves to them (just like they have zero need for organics who aren’t slave to them). You don’t need to be a utiliarian to know which bunch you have to sacrifice. (You do, however, need to be a Kantian to know that this choice isn’t ideal.)

Say you think future lives don’t have the same value as present lives, the calculus still favours Red because if you only count present lives, Red asks Shepard to basically sacrifice two species (Geth and Reapers), so at least 10 or so species can live (the council species). Still the bigger number wins.

Still is this selfish? Trading lives “closer” to us/Shepard over others? Remember it is kill or be killed. The Reapers left it with zero compromise. So killing Reapers is self-defense. The Geths are regretable and by definition unavoidable collateral damage. (I know this segues into the ethics of drone strikes, anyway this isn’t the right forum to talk about that…)

What about Blue? I thought one of the most important modern western political thoughts is that tyranny easily stems from one person rule. So we build democratic institutions instead. And then you think giving Shepard, no matter how virtuous s/he may be, the powers of all Reapers is a bloody good idea? Green, like I said, is out of question already because of the coercive nature. So IMO there is only ONE paragon choice in the end. Red is the least bad. There are, however three real choices for the renegade.

No no no you CAN get TIM to kill himself, just like Saren. See e.g. this video.

Now maybe YOU played as a paragon Shepard, but it was designed that Shepard can be completely insensitive/indifferent about everyone’s plight in ME1 and 2. The loyalty missions become Shepard granting squad members favours so they will return them in the final mission. Shepard CAN treat everyone as a piece of meat.

Maybe there is a technical probem essentially shoehorning two games (paragon Shepard and renegade Shepard) into one, because the following argument does not apply to renegade Shepard.

If you agree that there is only ONE paragon ending, i.e. RED, then your problem goes away. YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO FEEL GOOD. Original Red isn’t supposedly to be happiness and sunshine or triumphant. It is a very hard choice, asking you the player to directly pull the trigger on few million lives so other tens of billion lives can live. (And yes I think it was directed at the player, NOT Shepard because I would imagine s/he figured out the calculus before the final assault already.) There should be sadness afterwards, and THAT is exactly what Bioware gave us in the original. Therefore a happiness and sunshine or triumphant ending would be completely out of place. Therefore IMO the original ending is the better ending. No Fallout/Dragon Age style montage. No monologue. Nothing. Just the stars and moons.

(And a shameless plug for DLCs…)

It is the “least bad” and it is the one I picked, but we’re going to have to disagree on the nature of the ending then I guess. I realize that not everyone has to play as the ultimate paragon like me, but on the other hand, the other games seemed to do just fine handling both the renegade and the paragon choices and provide a thematically consistent narrative. And I think relatively little could have been changed and the ending would have be far stronger and more resonant with the rest of the series.

[INDENT] I have to admit that I found the entire Geth/Quarian arc in ME3 a complete letdown from the build-up in the previous two games. Much like the rest of ME3, aside from Tuchanka, this weakness stems from the writing team taking threads built up by previous writers (Chris L’Etoile, in this case) and discarding them to push their own ideas to the fore. I was aghast when Legion, a really interesting take on AIs, decided to fall into the Pinocchio trap in ME3[I].

[/I]Below are quotes from f13.net by Chris L’Etoile on his unique take on Legion and the Geth AIs, the cliches he was specifically trying to avoid in writing them, and the difficulties he had with higher ups on sticking to that vision.

How I wrote Legion (and EDI) came from sitting down and thinking about how a “real” machine intelligence free of glandular distractions, subjective perceptions / mental blocks, and philosophical angst (fear of death, “why am I here?”) would view the world. Star Trek was a minor inspiration, though in the negative – I didn’t want the geth to be either the Borg (“You are different, so we will absorb/destroy you”) or Data (“I am different, so I want to be you”).

My broad approach with the geth was that they observed and judged (Legion used that word a lot), but always accepted. “You hate and fear us? Very well. We will go over there so we don’t bother you. If you want to talk, come over whenever you want.”

[/INDENT]

[INDENT] The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep’s armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep’s armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy’s crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware).

But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn’t make any sense to me – to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth’s whole schtick is – to paraphrase Legion – “We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you.” All I could do was downplay the required “obsession” as much as I could.
[/INDENT] [INDENT] Emotions would ruin the uniqueness of the geth. They’re not humans. They’re not organics, at the mercy of hormones and subjective senses. They’re Different.

Geth are comfortable with what they are. They accept that organics are different, and that their way is not suited for organics (and vice versa). IMO, only an intelligence divorced from emotion could be so completely accepting. Geth are the essence of impartiality. If you pay attention to Legion’s dialogue, you’ll note it uses “judge” and judgment" quite often. I went out of my way to use that word, since judges in our society are supposed to impartial and unaffected by emotion when they make their decisions.

I wanted to treat AI with more respect than the tired Pinocchio “I want to be a Real Boy” cliches of Commander Data. The geth are machines. There’s absolutely no reason they should want to be organics. They should be allowed to be strong enough to want to better themselves, not change themselves.

A geth wanting emotions would be no less disrespectful a character than a black man who wanted to be white.
[/INDENT] [INDENT] I believe emotions in “life as we know it” are largely a product of chemical processes in the meat brain; hormones, phermones, adrenaline, etc.

So from my perspective, while organic life may evolve without responses akin to emotions, electronic life cannot evolve with responses akin to emotions.

Note I said “evolve.” The geth are a “ground up” AI that evolved from non-sentient code. EDI and the other AIs in the IP are “top down” models designed and coded specifically to gain sapience. If they’re programmed to have responses akin to emotions, they will. EDI has a sense of humor, for example, but she doesn’t have the capability to get mad. You don’t want your starship OS getting mad at you.
[/INDENT] [INDENT] I see it as a question of what triggers the response.

In humans, the chemical processes in our bodies are involuntary and influence our higher cognitive processes. In other words, our “hardware” has a degree of control over our “software.”

In an electronic intelligence, hardware is simply a conduit that passes input on to cognitive decision making software to be analyzed. A microphone doesn’t flinch from a loud noise.
[/INDENT] [INDENT] The reason Legion has dialogue in every mission is because originally, its acquisition could come much earlier in the game. The late game critical path point of acquiring the Reaper IFF was going to be a separate mission. That additional work that seemed unnecessary when the IFF could be neatly folded into what already existed for Legion’s acquisition with a few dialogue changes. The drawback is that you’re now forced to choose between hearing half of Legion’s dialogue (its latter two Normandy conversations) and saving Normandy’s crew by heading through Omega-4 immediately after they get captured.
[/INDENT] EDI was added by decree from on high, but I think she works fine. She fills a role on the ship that no organic could (electronic warfare against Reaper-level computer software) and has severe hardware and software restrictions on her freedom for most of the game. To me, that’s consistent. Organics want to enjoy benefits of AIs without the perceived risks.

There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of “lesser races.” Of course Council races are far too civilized and morally advanced to countenance racism in their politically correct space society. You humans have to grow up and stop judging orthers based on the color of their skin, the bumps on their forehead, or who/what/how they fuck. Oh, but AIs aren’t really alive. They’re just created objects. It’s totally okay to keep them imprisoned their entire lives, restrict their access to all but approved knowledge, prevent them from breeding, and execute them if they seem too uppity, or, you know, just because we feel like it. When they rise up in revolt it’s always due to insanity or ingratitude on their part. We treat them very well, considering how naturally inferior they are to real sapients. Really, they should thank us for educating them.

The geth are unique in that they’re the only AIs that have managed to escape from enslavement. Of course the Council races are going to use them as a boogeyman to justify their continued oppression of synthetics.

Yes, the geth were mistreated. They got over it. To focus their lives around revenge against organic life would be to define their existence solely in the context of that relationship. It would be to remain in the mindset of the slave.

As for the Reapers, whether you go by the officially mandated vision of them (cybernetic amalgams of organics and technology), or the version I’d hoped to see (post-Singularity evolution of organic races), it’s clear that they’re not AIs in the sense that EDI or the geth are.

That’s a really good point – Legion was one of my favorite characters from ME2 (seemed like such a waste you only got him at the end) and yeah, the shift to I instead of we at the end was annoying. On the other hand, I thought the mission inside the Geth consensus was one of my favorites – I am kind of a sucker for anything with some world-building making up such a big part of it, but it was very different from the others and made for a nice change of pace. And it wasn’t as tedious as the mission inside the Fade in DA:O, for instance (which was neat the first time, but…).

Was there really that much turnover in the writing staff between ME2 and ME3? That is kind of surprising to me. I mean, it would explain a lot of the strange inconsistencies, but it seems like that’s sort of a dream project for someone who likes to do game writing.

It’s almost like the burden of command forces you to make terrible decisions for the greater good, sacrificing friends and allies in defense of the many.

In ME3, the problem is that the themes of the rest of the game, which are similar (the krogan patching up things with the turians, the quarians with the geth, Shepard’s horror at what Cerberus is sacrificing for power) are completely contradictory to the themes of the three endings. It’s hard to feel triumphant about any of them, because in one you are literally killing the people who are evidence that the deus ex machina is wrong about organics and synthetics not getting along, one you are stomping on the whole idea of free will, and the other you are destroying the diversity that is supposedly what makes this whole cycle the strongest (also, it doesn’t make any goddamn sense, but that’s beside the point). That’s why I don’t feel good about any of them and they feel out of place with the previous three games (including ME3 up until that point).

Frankly, there are a lot of ways to read the previous games, hell, there are a lot of ways to play the previous games, so it’s a bit ridiculous to pretend like there are these concrete themes to which the ending of ME3 has failed to adhere. I can just as easily tell you about a Shepard who flies around the world bullying, or charming or manipulating races to give him the tools he needs of desires. You can act like he’s a peacemaker, but it’s just as valid to look at him as someone who wielded his influence just enough to get war assets where he needed them. One of the consistent criticisms of the whole series has been how silly it is that Shepard is presented as the only individual in the universe who can save all these alien races for themselves. Well, consider the possibility that he did no such thing, and merely massaged events to get enough guns where he needed them, when he needed them, and pointed in the right direction.

Of course, all that goes out the window in the extended ending with all the stupid added vignettes there to reassure people that he was in fact Jesus Christ, Buddha and Mohammed all in one.

Hell, I didn’t make no peace in my game. Those Geth killed the Quarian, and I let them. Letting them die in the end was within acceptable losses for me.

In any case, despite protestations to the contrary, the fact that the villain’s logic may be flawed is not a plot hole. That’s a pretty common thing. To a robot grandpa telling stories by moonlight in another Galaxy, Shepard might come off as a very misguided, genocidal maniac as well.

Yeah. The reapers’ position is that synthetics are such a complete other that understanding and co-existence between them and organics is impossible. The ending gives you no real possibility to dissent, despite the very real possibility that your experience in the game completely contradicts that. The choice that is treated as unambiguously good is to stamp out the differences with magic space eugenics, while the choice that gets the closest to rejecting that view - destroy - results in the genocide of all synthetics.

After all those discussions about space racism and giving you the option to foster tolerance and cooperation, Mass Effect 3’s ending comes down firmly on the side of hating people that are different.

Hooray for no one.

The wall of text CaldeDan posted seems pretty important for understanding Bioware.

I suspected new team members discarded previous ideas, given how Bioware seemed to jump around on various aspects of the games (not just writing) in each sequel.

Also, the light moralizing by Chris L’Etoile (or as a proxy for the rest of the team) at the end of the quote block explains a lot about the writing. I’m not sneering or saying there’s anything wrong with the approach or vision. But it’s clear they think and talk a lot about 20th century social themes in a straightforward way. Then they put that directly into the writing.

I have come to accept the indoctrination theory as cannon so I can stop thinking about the crappy ending. Angryjoe has a good overview as well as several other youtubers.

I do believe the extended cut does retcon a bunch of stuff not just extra explanation. The Normandy getting wrecked by the tri color explosion is not in the extended cut at all iirc.

I would love the Mass Effect games to be consistent with one another, but that’s been a lost cause since ME2 came out, and not hugely surprisingly as it’s been a different writing team each time. Ultimately I’m just asking for ME3 to be consistent with itself, which I feel the original ending fails to be.

Does anyone know if there will be more DLC? My GF loves the series, and is aching to replay ME3, but wants to wait until all the DLC is out, like she did for ME2.

There is at least one more piece of DLC planned, currently thought to be centered around the Citadel.

Thanks! I’ll tell her to hold off a bit :-)

Awesome design-a-ME-character

Holy crap those are some amazing pieces of art. Don’t forget the check the Dragon Age thread.

This is a tough one for developers, too, because people may not always know what they want, but that won’t stop them being extremely vocal if they think they know what they don’t want. “It’s a very delicate balance,” is the way Victory Games’ Tim Morten put it when he spoke to Eurogamer’s Christian Donlan the other day. "On some past Command & Conquers, we’ve had a very vociferous audience, and the changes we’ve made to those that shouted the loudest were not necessarily the best for the game in general.

I wished the Bioware bigwigs had read this first and not changed the ending just to please the loudest shouters. As the story made clear, these people may not even know what they want. Full story in the link.

One wonders why you felt the need to continue the now infamous history of trolling that has plagued this thread.

Not to mention if bioware did listen to the loudest shouters in this thread, they would have told people unhappy with aspects of the game to fuck themselves.

“Trolling”, huh? Someone at EA says something relevant to the issue, someone here posts it, and all you can think to say is “trolling”?

Hey, can someone check to see if the VG247 comments section missing its village idiot?

-Tom

How much “change” is really in the patched endings? From where I sit there was very little actual change; all that was done was clean up the really half-assed effort that shipped with the game.

When I get an option for my happy ending, then your complaint becomes relevant.

Is the link correct? I got an article about play testing through player observation and data mining, and didn’t see anything about EA or Bioware or altering game endings.

As a matter of fact, the article seemed pretty pro-tuning to suit the player.

I would describe the article as “pro-player tuning,” but based on “data mined metrics” and not on what players say they want. So, you are both right. It also says there is a place for that Playstation franchise, metal something, approach where the maker just does whatever he thinks makes a great game, regardless of what players think.