It’s sobering stuff, and there’s evidence that to some extent the eugenics program in the U.S. inspired Nazi policymakers.
OK.
But we need at least some of them to understand that voting Nazi for tax cuts is wrong. How do we do that?
I’ll say this again, but I don’t think it’s by saying “You’re evil.” That does not change minds.
What, pray tell, is going to change the mind of someone who is of voting age that is totally okay with putting children in cages? What argument or action do you think is going to result in the 68-year old guy with the confederate flag having a change of heart and decide, you know what, maybe putting children in cages isn’t right after all?
Nesrie, seriously, you know I didn’t mean that. I’m in no way talking about how we approach the nazis who marches in Charlottesville, the church shooters, this particular asshole or Steve King in Iowa. They fit any reasonable definition of evil. They have to be defeated, not convinced.
I’m saying that there aren’t 63 million people in that category. There are a tremendous number of Trump supporters who aren’t Nazis. The country is fucked unless a whole bunch of them change their thinking. I’m saying that lumping them all into the racist/ nazi bucket is not only futile, it actually makes it more difficult to peel them away.
Kevin, no one here is thinking we can change the mind of a die hard racist, but as I made the point earlier lots of people disagreed with the kids in cages on the republican side, and spoke out. What we need to be careful of doing is lumping all those people who spoke out with the die hard white nationalist. How do we get the blinders on republicans with morals, to push change on their own side?
A bunch of them Republicans are not OK with it. How do we convince a portion of those to stop voting for Trump? Which approach is likely to convert more of them:
1 “Let’s talk about our country’s values. What do you think about this?”
2 “You’re a fucking nazi and should really be punched.”
Yeah, if you’re talking to an actual nazi, proceed to step 2. But for the rest, that won’t work.
I understand that anger and despair drive this conversation from our side. What’s happening is fucking terrifying. But we have to approach it in the way most likely to be helpful. There is no sure way to convince people to reconsider their politics. But there are sure ways to make that task impossible.
What he said! LOL really need a like button here!
And I’m telling you, we already did this, and their numbers grew.
Just in case the topic is being overlooked, I think we need to be reminded what this is. A man killed, upright murdered several people, mass shooting of unarmed individuals in a place of their worship and you can be damn sure that before he did that, there was signs, signs he was violent, signs he was about to commit unspeakable acts and right alongside him were people making excuses for him, trying to find common ground and speak about his turmoil. How about, for once, we spend less time hand wringing over whether not the GOP can handle harsh words and look at the blood being mopped up on the floor, again, and start asking ourselves when are we going to stop excusing this shit.
You’re not going to change their minds. These people decided to dehumanize large groups of people so they could outright kill them or dismiss them years ago. Those people are gone. They’re not going to shift in mass. They’re at rallies cheering while people bleed to death on the floor. We don’t have enough counselors in the world to accommodate that kind of messed up mentality. And again, your policy, we tried. It failed.
The correct course of actions is to mourn the dead and reach out to those who didn’t vote not the ones walking over the bodies and spitting.
Aren’t they? Why are they still supporting/protecting this administration, then? All it would take is a bare handful of Republicans in Congress to put a stop to a lot of this stuff. But they don’t, because they’ll get primaried to hell. And that tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Republican voters, at least in any statistically significant portion.
They may not say “Yes I want to lock up children in cages”, but they fall into the other group of “Well, that’s not right, but…got my tax cuts and the economy is doing well, so I don’t really give a shit enough to rock the boat”.
I guess what I’m saying is, if literally locking up children in cages is not a persuasive enough argument to get someone to change their vote, I don’t think there’s anything that the rest of America can do or say that’s going to sway them. What is a more persuasive argument than something like that??
At this point in time, silence = assent
Numbers of what? Yeah, mass killers are gone. The frothing assholes at Trump rallies mostly are, too. I’m not talking about them. I’m really not. They should properly be treated as enemies of liberal democracy and this country.
I’m talking about those among Trump’s 63 million voters who don’t cheer kids in cages, the murder of jews or cops killing black men. I’m asking, how do we treat them? Because many of them can be brought back to their senses. And you don’t start those conversations by saying they’re all nazis/ racists, etc, not if you want to bring any of them back.
Thus the problem. The GOP is too far gone on too many issues to build common ground.
Environmental issues:
Climate change is real, we should look for possible changes we can make to mitigate its effects. Clean water and air is good, and managing pollution to maximize the public health is good, and being aware of what is released into the environment essential.
Vs
Climate change is fake liberal conspiracies by China in order to destroy our economy, drill baby drill! Companies shouldn’t be restricted in pollution and shouldn’t be forced to disclose what chemicals are being released into the environment. Who cares if it causes birth defects #notmyproblem
Healthcare
We should work to make it universal and affordable. And try and encourage behavior changes to improve health and lower costs, like encouraging regular checkups. (But not actually doing the hard thing of reducing costs by going after abisive practices like those found by the Epi Pen sellers)
Vs
Fuck You, got mine. Free market baby. Government out of healthcare (but don’t touch my Medicare). If you don’t have health coverage from work you’re a lazy worthless bum, get a job loser!
Racial/ policing
Police abuses of authority should be curbed, and systemic racially prejudiced activities corrected. Police militarization and broken windows nuisance policing have reduced community trust, and lead to problems. Nazis are bad people. People should be treated fairly regardless of race, and past discrimination has lasting effects that require policy remediation.
Vs
Why do you hate police, if you don’t listen instantly you deserve to be shot. And even if you do listen and get shot, you probably still deserved it. Good people on both sides. Reverse racism is the real discrimination today! It’s their fault their communities are impoverished.
How can you build a common ground here? When one side is vigorously, violently denying reality? Has embraced racism and xenophobia?
On environmental issues, even if you try to forge understanding by going over the economic and health benefits even setting aside climate change issues, at the end they go into this reflexive ‘government regulation bad, get rid of the EPA’ act. They don’t care. Even if you come to an understanding they have been conditioned to hate the response and reject it.
On racial issues, well, there flat out can not, and should not, be even a hint to reach common ground with people who are ok with Nazis. Flat or, fuck no. I repeat, an actual, literal, Nazi is running for Congress as the GOP nominee in the Chicago suburban district in which I lived, where my house still is. There is no common ground I want to even try and forge there. Admit you are wrong there, or fuck off, is really the only appropriate response to a GOP supporter on that one.
And when their response to police issues basically boils down to criminalizing being black? Well, no. Not interested in discussing that either. If they are willing to discuss proper police reforms, and the best ones to engage? Sure. But when their reflexive response to suggesting police reform is ‘you hate cops’ and retrenching into demanding people who protest police abuses be arrested? There’s no compromise possible.
So, yeah @David2, until and unless some portion of GOP supporters can admit they were wrong, straight up, there is no possibility for common ground on many of these issues.
And if it comes to choosing between compromising and normalizing literal Nazis, deciding that explicitly racist policy is ok, or that it comes down to civil unrest and violence to force those issues off the table?
I didn’t chose that path, I merely acknowledge it is the one we were forced into by the right going off the rails. If their current trend can be stopped, and their fever broken, then we can explore options. But until and unless the GOP reforms, I see violence as the inevitable and unfortunate outcome.
I hope we are not forced to choose between a peaceful oppression and a violent justice. But that is not up to me, it is up to those supposed good supporters of the GOP. Because if I must, I will choose justice.
You’re optimistic because you think the the beginning is extremes. Kids in cages, murdering cops, that get away with it, and the killing of Jewish individuals. That’s not where it starts… that’s not the beginning. It starts when they tell people they’re not allowed in a pool, where they scream at people for speaking a language that isn’t English, when they call cops on people because of the presence of an “Other” makes them uncomfortable. These are people going through their ordinary lives, and a large part of the GOP is just not freaking okay with sharing their space with people they’ve decided aren’t people. That number… is freaking huge and emboldened. It’s not just the Nazis and the white supremacy, it’s the people who think the minute someone who isn’t white gets a job they want, that they’ve been cheated and now need to make the system work against everyone who isn’t them. That number is a lot larger than you’re willing to admit, and you’re not going to get them to come to table and find common ground… you’ll be lucky if they’re willing to dirty their hands even touching the person reaching across.
Those people, not Nazis, are garbage, and they’re not interested in common ground. They want theirs, and they will sacrifice anyone else to get it, to “win”. You need to widen your net. The rot in the GOP far exceeds those who are openly violent.
I feel like you only read the topic sentences of my earlier posts, and repetition would not help.
Anger and despair are totally justified. But if you want to think through a path back to normalcy, those cannot be the guiding principles of our approach. Don’t focus on the worst members of the GOP, but on those who are willing to leave it (as many already have).
That said, this was probably the stupidest possible topic in which to have this discussion, and I regret joining it here. This kind of violence really is the worst of the GOP, and it needs to be called out and Trump needs to be held responsible.
That’s probably my bad. I did It with good intentions to moderate overly generalizing, but it was the wrong topic to make the point and kick off this conversation
It’s a valuable discussion. Perhaps the ‘Decline of the GOP’ thread.
I think it was said best in Florida, and I paraphrase to include the GOP.
The GOP might not be racists, but the racists certainly think they are.
I’m reading your entire posts, FWIW.
Look, I’m not some “coastal liberal” sipping my latte thinking about this stuff. I live in one of the Reddest parts of the country you can find. Most everyone I know is extremely conservative and typically vote straight-ticket Republican.
The thing is, all of the “good Republicans” I know have already repudiated Trump and the party. They’re still ultra conservative and are not common allies with the Democrats, but they’ve already abandoned Trump. Because these are decent people who can’t abide what the President has been doing, and what Congress has been abetting. They’re the Jeff Flake wing of the party, they have serious issues with this administration.
But like I said, those people have already turned their back on Trump. I’m not talking about Trump voters being lost causes, I’m talking about Trump supporters. The people who are cheering him on in the last days of 2018. I know some of these people as well (some are family members, sadly), and I’m comfortable in saying there’s no reaching them. Certainly not by me, certainly not by liberals or Democrats.
These are the people that want to see all the “Mexicans” deported. These are the people fantasizing about sending some Apache helicopters to take care of the migrant caravan. These are the people I hear talking about how they want to find a way to frame the “towelheads” that live in their apartment complex so they can call the cops and “hopefully help some sand niggers get the chair”. And yes, that’s an exact fucking quote.
So I react a little badly when I hear a bunch of “both sides” and how we need to reach out to these people and find common ground, especially in a thread where one of them just shot up a synagogue out of pure hate. If enough horrific shit hasn’t happened since 2016 to cause someone to reevaluate their support for Trump, I don’t think there’s a way for others to sway them. Something that hits them directly in the things they care about (like economic mismanagement leading to a massive recession) might, but that’s not in our control.
I know you were not responding to me, but thanks for articulating the context you are coming from. That helps, I see from you’re experience how your getting there.
This is a great distinction. There are people who voted in 2016 and recently or long ago walked away from that. If 2 years of this, and rubbing elbows with straight up Nazis and White Supremacy and watching their leaders paint targets on the backs of people isn’t enough to turn them, nothing will except them losing everything AND the GOP not being able to convince them it is somehow the Dems fault.
I also live in a red county. No latte sipping liberal here either. I am surrounded by Trump and conservatives all the time. I am not using articles online to tell me how these people think.