Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance... So like, when do I play?

I don’t know if it has the extra missions, but Eidos just released Thief Platinum before Christmas, and it includes Thief 1 and 2. No manual, budget pricing.

I don’t know if it has the extra missions, but Eidos just released Thief Platinum before Christmas, and it includes Thief 1 and 2. No manual, budget pricing.

It doesn’t, unfortunately.

I’ve read one of them. Not bad, but he’s a fish in a very big pond…

No, it doesn’t. Which sucks, because the extra missions (particularly the opera house mission) are excellent, and give the game a much better balance between robbery missions and “monster” missions.

I suppose someone would have said something by now, but it doesn’t hurt to ask. Is there any way at all to get hold of the missions separately?

Look, I haven’t wanted to say anything until I could find the post, but isn’t responding. But a while back, I thought I saw a mention there of a store in Norway that was selling copies of Thief Gold. When it comes back, I’ll fill you Scandinavian kiddies in. Other than that, your only chance is on ebay.

Just to bring this thread back to reality so those reading it don’t think MGS2 is the worst game ever made…


Before you give up on it completely, try and steal a copy of Thief from some scrawny geek who collects obscure titles, since you can’t find it in stores.[/quote]

You can find “Thief Platinum” at EB. It contains Thief and Thief 2 in one box for like $20. I have seen copies of Thief: Gold at EB also in the bargain bin.

Two ebay links I found active as of now:
here and here

Here’s a little anecdote about game score inflation:

I am friends with the guy who was head of PR at Konami at the time. He recieved instructions that the print press was to be brought in at seperate times to play the game for 5 - 6 hours. This not unusual tactic was to be their entire experience with the game before they wrote their reviews. PSM was given the exclusive first crack at it. I heard from one of their staffers, but not from the guy who actually wrote the review, that they initally were going to give it an 8. Someone went nuts at this suggestion and apparently said, uh…no, Metal Gear Solid 2 is a 10. Case closed. That’s the score it recieved.

I am also friends with the guy who gave it 5 stars at NextGen. He was shown the ending to the game via a save file, but didn’t actually make it all the way through to the end. At the time, he honestly felt it was amazing. Later, having played the game and have received a fair amount of static from those of us who thought the game a disappointment, he later said he should have given it 4 stars at most.

I also know someone who freelances for the lad mags (Maxim, FHM, Stuff, etc.) who played the game for a whole 90 minutes before giving it the highest score possible in his “massive” 150 word review in the mag. (To be fair, I don’t think that mag is actually list on gamerankings, so it wouldn’t really count towards the game’s overall score there.).

Granted, there are a boatload of reviews on Gamerankings, and not a single major source gave it less than 9 out of 10. But there is also the pressure of not wanting to seem out of step. Your audience is less likely to cancel their subscription or stop clicking based on a softball review than they are if you would give the most important game of the year, a million pre-ordered PS2 game a mediocre 5.

Yet another reason why the “finish the damn game before writing the review” policy is best.

Only time I ever reviewed a game before playing the whole thing was the boxed version of Air Warrior 2, which had something like 390 missions. :)

I’m still trying to finish this game. I found that MGS2 is a very easy game to put down. The cutscenes go on so long they’re exhausting. And I think the bulk of praise that the story got must have been from fanbois who have mistaken meandering complexity for good writing. Just because the plot is hard to follow doesn’t make it good. There are far too many great titles out now that deserve attention.

“Rose, I won’t let you be just a dream.”

Give me a freakin’ break.

How wumpusian of you. Thanks for bringing us that dash of reality, because clearly no one here is aware of the ridiculous wave of hype surrounding Metal Gear Solid 2.

And just to bring Game Rankings back to reality, Black & White is one of the best games ever, at least according to Game Rankings

But I am curious, what exactly are you saying here? That none of these criticisms has any validity? That all reviewers are infallible? I take it that if Game Rankings says a game you reviewed or liked is better or worse, you were wrong?

What those high scores say to me is that no one had the balls to go against the wave of hype. No game is perfect, and no game is loved by every single person who plays it. Unfortunately, the press rarely reflects this reality and routinely overrates games that are pre-determined to be “amazing.” (And some games turn out that way, but then you have the Black & White phenomenon, or Metal Gear Solid 2, where at least one reviewer had to notice was short on actually gameplay and overly long on terrible exposition.)

Funny- this is what I mentioned in one of those other threads. If this game is making you annoyed with all the cutscenes, do yourself a favor, and do not even attempt to play Final Fantasy X, Soul Reaver 2, and to a lesser extent ICO. These games will drive you batty.

I think it’s different.

MGS2 cutscenes are horribly timed. 30 seconds of action, 5 minutes of talking. They’re abrupt, vague, non-linear and poorly connected with one another until later on in the game.

The other games you mentioned just have a healthy dose of story. I found the cutscenes to be rewards for a lot of hard work. It’s like Wing Commander IV - I played the game for the movie. And it was a great movie.

What those high scores say to me is that no one had the balls to go against the wave of hype.

Right…over 100 scores and they’re all wrong.

You guys kill me. There’s approximately ten people in the thread that are claiming the game sucks and suddenly there’s a great conspiracy of Metal Gear Solid 2 reviews.

Hey Jim, here’s one for you. You complained in another thread that DaveC wouldn’t support print mags. You whined that no one wanted to advertise in Next Gen. Yet now you’re telling me your reviews were basically “bought”. Maybe there’s another reason no one wanted to pay for ads in the mag. Maybe it’s because they could count on your reviewers to advertise the game for them?

I guess Jessica was right when she wrote in her Biting the Hand column that the magazine industry is bought and paid for. Well…some of it anyway. You just proved her point and gave everyone even more fodder to not read any print mags. Thanks.


I was making a claim using several examples PSM, NextGen, Maxim. I could bring in an example of at least one other web site that I know of, but I am not 100% so I didn’t site it. It was really a claim about reviewers getting caught up in the hype of a title, wanting to love it and not seeing all the flaws. I think this happens all the time in all sorts of criticism, from videogames to music, film and literature (it’s even going on in sports right now with Yao Ming). I don’t see this as being “bought” because there is no quid pro quo, it is simply a lack of critical nerve on the part of some reviewers. Others have mentioned Black & White as another example of this.

I didn’t read that particular column so I am not exactly sure what Jessica’s claim is. If the claim is that there is a very cozy relationship between the publishers and the press, then, yes, that’s absolutely true. They both sort of feed on each other, not really interested in antagonizing each other, but content to live in a state of benign mutual exploitation.

However, if the claim is the reviews are “bought”, well, then I would have to admit I find those accusations pretty ridiculous, certainly for print mags like NextGen. Why? Well, first because no one has any proof of this, it’s just one of those accusations that’s easy to wave around. But more importantly because reviews are not nearly as valuable as previews to the financial reality of a title. I’m sure Adam at Sierra can tell you about the binders PR have to organize and collect gushing previews, screenshots, headline, covers and general press that a game receives. These binders are taken to retailers to show them just how much hype the game has, and therefore, just how much sell-in a title should have.

Reviews in print mags often come in up to a month after a game is on store shelves, and for a typical title, the first four weeks often represents 70 - 80% of total sales. Who cares if PC Gamer pans it five weeks after it hit the shelves? It has probably seen the bulk of its sales by that time. As my director of marketing once said with a laugh: “You’re a developer now, and only developers care about review scores.”

While that is not strictly true – reviews from the web have more influence because of their immediacy – reviews are much less important to publishers than I ever imagined.

If any of the developers on this board like DaveC and Derek or reviewers like Chick, Bub or Erik feel differently, I’d be interested in hearing why.

It was really a claim about reviewers getting caught up in the hype of a title, wanting to love it and not seeing all the flaws.

And god knows this never happens to Dave Long. Particularly when discussing the Dreamcast or the Gamecube.

For the rest of you: stick to the VR missions. There’s some solid gameplay in there.

It’s all moot now, folks. Returned it and used the credit as a down payment on Unreal 2 (Please don’t let me down, Epic/Legend).

I just couldn’t stand it anymore. Horrible camera combined with endless amounts of cutscenes/dialogue. I just don’t have the patience to put up with that kind of crap. If this is what the console folks say is a good game, I’ll stick with my PC, thank you very much.

Until Unreal 2 ships, I’m happy with the Raven Shield demo. Damn thing won’t ship till March, though. Who needs to worry about stealth with you’ve got an H&K G36C commando rifle and you know how to use it! Gaaaaaaah, but I need more than 3 maps!

But please, go ahead and continue the pulling and screaming. Last I saw, someone trashed Dave Long!

Just to clarify, Unreal 2 ships first week of Feb. But Raven Shield is March. Grrrrrr… Hurry up Red Storm Toronto!43

I don’t see any great conspiracy. I know that many people love the MGS games. I’m just not one of them.