Migration complication immigration aggravation

For all things migration / immigration related.

I’ve been busy. What’s going on with this “refugee caravan?” The whole thing is bizarre in that it seems well documented and publicized.

Domestically for the USA, i worry about this take is … i don’t know.

Scenes like this are shocking and heartbreaking… and worrying.

Can the liberal order figure out what to do with this before it’s too late? Because the conservatives are exactly clear what they want to do in response, and it’s that clarity that’s worrying.

IE the liberal world order needs to have a plan, an international stability plan, an idea that we can fix the root of this problem. Not “oh well, nothing that can be done, this is just the way the world is now.” Because that attitude will (imo) lose elections. And, perhaps, rightfully.

Of course this is a drop in the bucket compared to the Syria diaspora, and the timing of this couldn’t have been more inconvenient for the US elections. And maybe the Syrian experience shows the fractious and unsteady response to mass immigration already, now that i think this through, and the unwillingness to intervene in Syria and Yemen probably shows that the current international order is unable to engage these problems productively without leadership from one of the big powers - the US or China.

Moved to P&R.

Thanks, that’s where I intended it to be.

My understanding is that this is the way refugees have taken to traveling, to avoid the various predators that prey on them. But

  1. It does not represent an increase in refugees, just a concentration of them for safety.
  2. It is not going to reach the US border.
  3. If it did reach the US border, it would not be allowed into the country. That, in any rational world, such a caravan is less of a threat to border security than widely dispersed little groups sneaking over the border by stealth. After all, our problem is not the inability to repel unarmed groups of a few thousand!

Rather, this is the right wing’s wet dream come true. Video to dramatize the size of the illegal immigrant problem, and to present it in the most visually dramatic and threatening form.

The problem, in my mind, is that liberals (and I generally count myself as one) have way overplayed their hand, when it comes to immigration. It’s fine to be pro-immigration. It’s fine to object when longtime productive citizens are deported because their parents came here in violation of law (or are suspected of thus.) It is fine to point out our immigrant heritage, and to predict that continued immigration will help us a lot more than it harms us.

What is not fine, at least as I am seeing it, is to pretend that is not even a legitimate political viewpoint to want to limit immigration. It is human nature to object to rapid cultural change, and that is what results when you get very rapid immigration into an area. Many of us, for one reason or another, may not be threatened by this particular cultural change – often because of our location or social station or whatever – but that does not make the concerns of other Americans in any way evil. (Think how differently a lot of us would react if the incoming were all strict fundamentalists, for example.)

Furthermore, the portion of America that is unhappy with immigration has a legitimate gripe: in recent decades, they followed small d democratic process, elected people (Republicans) to represent their views… and got double crossed. Mainstream business Republicans until recently ran the party and routinely presented themselves as champions of the anti-immigrant forces, but actually saw to it that business Republicans always had plenty of illegal immigrants to hire… because they are not only cheap, but also extremely compliant. This was a deliberate double cross – I have Republican friends who run local agricultural operations, and they were never worried that Reagan and his sort actually intended to deprive them of their labor pool.

The problem for all of us now is that this double crossed anti-immigration wing is furious beyond rational thought. They followed the rules of a democratic society, got their legislation passed, and now can’t get the laws enforced. Which is a recipe for turning against the rule of law.

However, and this is the important thing, we liberals have consistently played right into Republican hands on this issue. You would think that anti-immigration forces would hate the Republican Party for the double cross – and to some extent they do. During the primary season of '16, many expressed serious doubts about Trump’s competitors because they did not trust them on immigration. Trump’s hateful rhetoric appealed largely because of this.

But meanwhile, by speaking out in favor of illegal immigration and dramatizing the slow-walking of law enforcement, liberals protected the Republican leadership by sounding so much more antagonistic to these people. And, above all, this video evidence of an alleged invading army of illegal immigrants is meant to bait liberals into saying it is all okay. Reminding all sorts of voters that even if President Trump does break laws, his liberal opponents openly condone breaking laws, in this case welcoming an invading army.

So… although that caravan poses no physical threat to us at all, it poses an enormous political threat, if you are left of center or a centrist.

Who does this? Viewpoints like this play directly into the vapid media talking points.
No one is in favor of illegal immigration. Pass some sane laws, document the folks moving in, go through a process to become a citizen. What is the BFD? Seriously, I don’t get it. Immigration for the US, a country of 350 million people is not an existential crisis. and it isn’t going to result in any kind of “rapid culture” change. This is a non-issue turned into one by the stupid people of the world and made worse by hand wringing liberals.

It will be an issue when large sections of the planet are no longer inhabitable, but we’re not there yet. (Climate change is an existential threat, but yeah lets get all wigged out about immigration.)

There’s no winning side on this argument.

I’m not really sure what you are saying.

Are you saying that you cannot recall liberals supporting illegal immigration? Or are you saying that you are certain that immigration is not a threat to us?

If the former, remember that President Obama made a public spectacle out of delineating the categories of illegal immigrants he would not deport. Remember that we have sanctuary cities. One cannot, with a straight face, claim that we do not have lots of visible support for illegal immigration.

If the latter, well, first of all, I agree with you in general. Immigration does not threaten me, and if the matter were put up for a referendum, I would vote pro-immigration. However, you may be making what I think is a common mistake of thinking that because you are sure you are right, that political forces on the other side are not legitimate, and that even if they win elections, they can legitimately be denied their way.

Anti-immigration forces have passed legislation which is on the books, and they have a right to see those laws enforced. If those laws are not enforced, we get two extremely serious forms of blowback: 1) We strengthen the more extreme half of the Republican Party, and 2) We de-legitimize our own insistence on the rule of law, and that includes really primal stuff, like whether the president has to bow to the law.

We can despise President Trump all we like, but this is an issue that works very, very well for him and his allies.

Sanctuary cities aren’t about being pro-illegal immigration, it’s about effective policing and security within the city.

From Wikopedia: Sanctuary city (French: ville sanctuaire , Spanish: ciudad santuario ) refers to municipal jurisdictions, typically in North America and Western Europe, that limit their cooperation with the national government’s effort to enforce immigration law."

I agree with their reasoning 100%. All kinds of problems fester when you have a large group of people who have to live under the radar in order to avoid deportation.

Almost every law has a downside, but noting that fact does not change the fact if you are working against existing law. And that has practical and political consequences. One of which is to enrage the people who wanted the law, diminishing their respect for the rule of law, and, in this case, strengthening a highly undesirable president.

No one is supporting illegal immigration. They just aren’t. That’s a dumb Republican talking point. Obama deported more illegal immigrants than Bush. What they did do was propose a pathway to citizenship.

And no laws have been passed. The bi-partisan immigration bill that passed in the Senate during Obama’s term died in the House due to the misnamed Freedom caucus. Immigration policy is set by ICE (at the direction of the executive.)

What proof is there? That it’s some kind of problem? It’s not. Immigrants coming to this country are people, often afraid just trying to provide for their families. But if there’s concern, then pass laws for employers go to jail. (Like that’s going to happen.)

The only ‘legitimate’ thing in this is the way the right uses it as a wedge issue (there are a lot of hateful people out there) and how the obsequious media plays along.

It is not at all clear that the best solution to finding an illegal immigrant is to deport him/her. Even if it were, it is not at all clear that the problem is so pressing that devoting resources to finding, detaining and deporting illegal immigrants is a sensible choice. So, deprioritzing finding them and limiting deportation to a subset of cases can be a sensible policy position.

With regard to sanctuary cities, the kinds of immigration enforcement techniques they object to, and refuse to cooperate with, are affronts to civil rights. Demanding to see the papers of people because they are not white is racist and, many believe with some grounds for argument, a violation of the constitution. Cities that decline to cooperate effectively prevent their police forces and social services from being used to help ICE. That they do so is entirely legal, as the Federal government has no power to compel local authorities to enforce immigration laws. Indeed, the structure of the government defined by the constitution is deliberately one where the federal government can’t do that.

Right. Which is why I said it’s about policing and security within the city, not being pro illegal immigration. They’re not trying to smuggle additional illegal immigrants across the border or anything like that. It’s a misleading characterization, which is why the Republicans love to label it as being pro illegal immigration.

It’s the same shtick as calling Democrats pro-abortion.

Which laws compel local governments to enforce immigration law?

Partisans are always using the dodge that things they don’t like are dumb talking point. It is a meaningless statement. I mean, all it says is that the other side is talking about it. Totally begging the question of whether it is true.

When you say “no laws have been passed” I cannot take this seriously. Are you denying that we have laws limiting immigration? That all these “illegal immigrants” are not, in fact, here in violation of law? Sorry, but hey…

We ALL have lots of laws we strongly approve of, and if government refuses to enforce them vigorously, to the best of their ability, we get really angry, and probably take political action. Democrats have made the political misjudgment of limiting the enforcement of immigration laws, and, maybe more to the point, talking up the limitation of enforcement of immigration laws. As long as it was a practical problem that no Democrat or Republican government could really enforce properly, the issue had limited political utility for Republicans. But once Democrats spoke out for limiting enforcement, they inherited the brunt of the anger. Which is infuriating because it was actually Republican leaders who double crossed them.

[quote=“MrGrumpy, post:10, topic:138192”]
Immigrants coming to this country are people, often afraid just trying to provide for their families. But if there’s concern, then pass laws for employers go to jail. (Like that’s going to happen.)
[/quote] You are really missing my point completely.

I have nothing against immigrants. And I can think of many preferable laws, including the one you suggest. But… the law is the law, and when our side come to represent ignoring the law, we bring on a whole bunch of serious problems for ourselves, much to the benefit of President Trump and his people. Being “right” about immigration does not change that fact.

Bending ourselves into knots trying to placate the racist fucks who vote for Republicans will do no one anyone good. It’s a moot point. Those people are a lost cause, morally and politically.

The same federal system that compels local government to enforce civil rights legislation, federal health care legislation, etc.

When it comes to immigration and certain drug laws, the two sides seem to switch sides when it comes to the proper relationship between the federal government and state/local governments.

Again, which law compels e.g. local police to check the citizenship status of people they meet? Which law requires that they arrest and hold noncitizens?

Which laws have been passed? When? Go look up the last immigration bill that passed Congress and was signed into law. Tell me when that was.

Right now immigration policy is enforced by ICE at the direction of the president.

You know what the rule of law is? People fleeing their homeland are legally entitled to apply for asylum for up to a year after they get here.

I’m out though. Have fun.

I see what @FinnegansFather is saying, and for the most part I agree. The left’s support for DACA and the like has been conflated with supporting every illegal immigrant and ignoring immigration law by the right. Is that fair? No, but what is fair in the media and political landscape these days? I don’t really see Democrats trying to combat this, and it’s hard to blame them, since it’s like shouting into a hurricane. The right’s propaganda machine is overwhelming.

The problem with this sort of argument is that Trump is on record as supporting DACA. If those on the right can call liberals traitors because of DACA while ignoring Trump’s own statements on it, then those on the right are not making a rational argument, and nothing liberals did would cause those on the right to stop demonizing them.