Millennial Burnout

This probably feeds into the “mid-life crisis” part of it, a bit. As you have older millennials reaching the top end of their 30’s at this point. And I think this was the first generation where people were pushed hard into going to college, for many of my friends into degree programs that were not good choices to make money. I chose biology, because I have a passion for science, and that was a good choice. Others who picked mathematics or music or english, have not done as well.

I think the difference is that we all spent a fuck ton of money on college compared to previous generations, and the labor market just wasn’t there when we graduated.

According to the Food Institute, which analyzed Bureau of Labor Statistics expenditure data from 2015, people from 25 to 34 spent, on average, $3,097 on eating out. Data for this age group through the decades was not readily available. But the bureau’s report indicated that this group spent $305 more than people from 55 to 64 — a group that encompasses some baby boomers — and $89 more than the overall average, including spending among people ages 35 to 54.

The truth is, even if millennials assumed the eating-out habits of baby boomers, it would take around 113 years before they could afford a down payment on a home (assuming a 20 percent down payment on the median price for a home in the United States, $315,000 in March 2017, and a 1 percent yearly yield rate).

As for Mr. Gurner’s second suggestion — skipping the European vacation — there is indeed an opportunity for savings, but research suggests millennials are the generation spending the least on travel.
Millennials spent $4,832 per year on vacations, just below the $5,078 by Gen-Xers and $5,012 by boomers, according to MMGY Global’s Portrait of American Travelers in 2016. The study surveyed 2,948 adult travelers with annual incomes over $50,000.

I think a lot of the pushback has to do with boomers and others complaining about how we don’t know how to manage our money, and that it is our own faults for being frivolous with our spending, when the data shows that just isn’t the case. We are barely spending more than the average person of any age on dining out, we spend less on travel, and more on healthcare and other everyday things.

I think the perception is, the world is so much a better place! You got to go to college! You have a good job! When the reality is, we just aren’t making as much as previous generations were at our age.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-21/america-s-millennials-are-waking-up-to-a-grim-financial-future

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Of course, it’s perfectly normal for people just starting out to have less in the bank. However, the St. Louis Fed warned that, even when taking that into account, young Americans are slipping dangerously behind. For a time, Generation X was also losing out, thanks to the 2008 financial crisis. But its members managed to make up most of the shortfall in the years since, tapping into the longest economic expansion in decades.

For some reason that period of tremendous growth barely helped millennials. The St. Louis Fed called this anomaly “a missed opportunity because asset appreciation is unlikely to be as rapid in the near future.” That’s pretty bad news for twenty and thirtysomethings who may have been hoping to catch up.

Piketty thinks this is only part of the story. From Capital in the 21st Century:

In fact, the budgetary and political shocks of two wars proved far more destructive to capital than combat itself. In addition to physical destruction, the main factors that explain the dizzying fall in the capital/ income ratio between 1913 and 1950 were on the one hand the collapse of foreign portfolios and the very low savings rate characteristic of the time (together, these two factors, plus physical destruction, explain two-thirds to three-quarters of the drop) and on the other the low asset prices that obtained in the new postwar political context of mixed ownership and regulation (which accounted for one-quarter to one-third of the drop).

He points out that the UK lost more value as a result of decline in investments and national savings than Germany and France did in physical destruction.

His argument for the strength of the post-war boom is that the political shocks of the two world wars and the depression had created a political regulatory regime which drove down the price of stocks and real estate (the two classic forms of capital). Housing was cheap, wages captured a larger share of manufacturing value, the depredations of capital were reined in by regulation.

The thing about kids is that you become a 1 income household, unless you have family close by to help, and even then its still pricy since no one wants to be a full time substitute mom or dad, and many grand parents are still working.

Keep in mind, ACA rules don’t cover family members, so costs might go up a lot if you switch to a single income family.

On the plus side, you have tax breaks, you can skip employer health care and try for CHIP for the kids (especially if you or your spouse decides to do the stay at home route) and a lot of kids toys can be gotten cheap at community aid and consignment stores.
CHIP especially was a godsend. Went from several hundred dollars a month to 0. Now it’s about 60. I wish I knew about it before I lost my job.

Also, babies are super cute!

My wife works part time, she does a little work with Young Living (yes, a MLM but it brings a fewer hundred dollars in a month) and baby sits a bit.

Oh, and you have to worry about your commute. Every hour on the road is an hour you aren’t getting paid or an hour you aren’t helping your spouse/care giver with the kids and it all adds up. Big time!

On the other hand, kindergarten is only 5 years away! 5 years and you’ll have some freedom.

I only have time for a quick reply but…

I think the root cause of this issue is the adoption of neoliberalist policies in the West (which I also blame for the rise of popularism but that’s another story). The idea that society should be ran by the free market economy has led to massive inequality, debt, and stagnant wages but just as importantly it’s changed the way in which people behave day to day.

As a neoliberalist society we promote psychopaths to managerial positions, we are made to suffer through endless “performance reviews”, risking redundancy if we receive poor results. We promote gaining ever increasing amounts of possessions, and accumulating wealth as the main life goals to strive for. We’re raised to be in constant competition with each other, all the time. It’s not healthy and we’re beginning to reap the results.

I found some other good information, including some studies done by that aforementioned federal reserve bank of st louis.

A Lost Generation? Long-Lasting Wealth Impacts of the Great Recession on Young Families

  • The 1980s cohort is at greatest risk of becoming a “lost generation” for wealth accumulation. Wealth in 2016 of the median family headed by someone born in the 1980s remained 34 percent below the level we predicted based on the experience of earlier generations at the same age. The corresponding shortfalls of the 1960s cohort (–11 percent as of 2016) and the 1970s cohort (–18 percent) are worrying but are much smaller than their respective 2010 and 2013 shortfalls. Alone among the six decadal cohorts we studied, the typical 1980s family lost ground between 2010 and 2016, falling even further behind the typical wealth life cycle. This represents a missed opportunity because asset appreciation is unlikely to be as rapid in the near future as it was during the recent period. Two reasons for optimism are that the 1980s cohort has many years to get back on track and it is the most educated—hence, also potentially the highest-earning—group ever.

So I guess there is some hope there at the end, unless of course you fell too far behind to catch up.

I mean, this really is a unique problem to the millennial generation.

A study published this month by Christopher Kurz, Geng Li and Daniel J. Vine found millennials are less financially well-off than members of earlier generations when they were the same ages, with “lower earnings, fewer assets and less wealth.”
Their finances were compared with Generation X, baby boomers, the silent generation and the greatest generation.

I mean, this is quantifiable. We spend and work the same amount, but have less money. It is fact.

That wasn’t aimed at you Lego, it was from upthread…

Oh. Sorry.

That’s an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. It makes sense to me… I mean, my parents raised five children off of solely my dad’s income, my mother was a stay at home mom. We didn’t have a lot of money, but we never went hungry. And he was a blue collar guy working at a refinery.

The thought of being able to house, clothe, and feed five children off of just my income? Starting in my twenties/early thirties? Without a college degree? Haha. No.

Yeah that article is turning me off with the millenial oh-woe-is-me. Gen-X lived through 9/11 and get-nuked Cold War. Those fuckers in Wall Street in the 80s got all their shit. This guy complaints of an hour-long commute for a job, I had a longer commute to get to high school.

This person’s family was well-off. My family was poor so it gave me even more guilt - they worked fucking hard in a third-world economy to give me a better life. My grandparents ate leaves post war. I know I’m soft.

Yeah yeah, I know, everyone suffers depending on their baseline.

Which is another reason that I think it’s more helpful to talk about the wage-stagnation story that the personal experience side of the story. Talking about personal experience is always going to be open to comparison in terms of comparative suffering, whereas talking about wage stagnation is using an aggregated baseline.

Yes, I should have added a post-script. I am fully against ever-concentrated wealth for many reasons, it removes motivation, it is antimeritocratic (as much as reality ever resembles ideals), it is politically destabilizing, and finally it’s just unfair.

You are confusing ancedotal evidence for real data. Have fun with that.

And I lived in Europe during the 80s because my father worked for the Department of Defense, and on 9/11, everything changed. Our school was outside the base, so Gates were built, armed US soldiers in full kit were stationed outside. Sand bags and blockades we’re put up at the bases so no direct line could be driven into the bases. Operational Security was drilled into everyones head, because we kids were all soft targets.

Yeah, I will take the Cold War over what we went through, and that was just my senior year. I can’t imagine what the younger kids had to go through, especially the ones with parents deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. That was a psychological toll on them.

Every generation goes through turmoil or war, but this is the first generation in 4 that has gone through a reduction in economic gains to go along with it.

I shouldn’t wade into this thread.

So I graduated in 2009 from an underappreciated “city school” with a degree in accounting, good grades, and an internship with Ernst & Young (“Big 4” accounting firm - generally considered a strong resume builder) under my belt. I turned down their offer, because they grind their staff down to a pulp. I then proceeded to struggle with finding an entry level job anywhere for 6 months. Had to move back in with my parents (the first time). I remember sobbing in my car once when I drove 4 hours to Roanoke for a 2 hour interview only to have the recruiter call me 5 minutes after walking out to tell me that I didn’t get the job. Then had to drive 4 hours back home. I had less than $200 in my bank account and I remembered being so shocked and grateful when the Roanoke company sent me a check in the mail to reimburse my mileage at the government rate. Eventually, I got super lucky and a regional accounting firm hired me on for tax season. On my first day of work they announced a merger with a larger accounting firm and I found out that I was hired on as one final bout of autonomy as my firm was gutted, we had 10% layoffs, and we had 33% turnover for 3 years in a row. Luckily, I wasn’t laid off, but the merger was brutal.

Things went up from there when I got my CPA, switched to another accounting firm and the economy improved. Public accounting is generally a very secure career path. First year staff just out of college can roughly guarantee a $50k starting salary even at smaller firms - with rapid salary increases/bonuses from there. It can be grueling though, I’ve spent the rest of my 20’s and early 30’s often working on average 60 hours throughout the year (multiple busy season based on various industries). However, I “picked” a “good degree”, so in sacrificing my time and energy, I’ve been able to afford a good lifestyle.

I very much understand the whole burnout culture as it is fairly present in public accounting. I work late many night, including weekends. It is a hassle to go grocery shopping. My partner and I routinely get into arguments about cooking dinner, because the last thing I want to do is cook any sort of passable meal when I get home at 7 or 8. I put off doctor/dentist visits, put off doing chores, put off anything that would take energy when I am not working. I don’t even want to do hobbies (gaming), because that takes energy as well. Some weekends I tell my partner that I just want to do -nothing-, I just want my brain to rest. I have zero - ZERO - understanding of how people can manage to have kids. Long hours come with the territory though, and believe me, the firms take advantage of it.*

*Fun fact - since I’ve been in public accounting - my firm starting requiring tax accountants to get their Masters in Taxation first, and heavily encouraged auditors to get their Masters in Accountancy from a local prestigious school. 1 year of education = $50 grand in student loans. You only need 150 credits to pass the CPA exam which is all you really need in public accounting.

Now, I think my anyone’s standards, I am living a good life. I still have student loans, I’m currently paying rent that is higher than my last mortgage, I’m scared to death of visiting a doctor. However, I largely don’t have to track how I am spending money. Part of that is that I am naturally a conservative saver - part of it is that I am still mentally scarred by graduating in the economic downturn, struggling, and being near to having $0 in my bank account. BUT now, I know that I don’t have to worry about starving**, or delinquent bills if I miss a paycheck. That being said, I have never felt comfortable. Housing prices make me gag - houses that were approx 230k three years ago are now 300k in my area. I barely made that savings metric that was floating around last year. I’m terrified of the next economic downturn, because what if it is like the last? I’m not a big social media guy, but I am being affected by my peers who are able to spin off and be Controllers, and CFO’s, and Vice Presidents elsewhere. I don’t want to work harder, I’m already working hard, but I do feel the societal pressure to continue striving.

** Did I mention that, before I moved back home, my partner and I used to “dumpster dive” so that we didn’t have to pay for food? I had just graduated college with an accounting degree and I was grabbing trunk fulls of goods that the Food Bank was throwing away.

Anyways, there is a lot to unpack here and I feel like I’ve written too much about my life already. TLDR, even though I have managed to be successful - I’m still not happy about it.

My partner, my sister, and my brother-in-law all have had different experiences though. Bachelors in Biology, Psychology/Sociology, and Philosophy, respectfully. All three had to go back to get their Masters in something else in order to get a reasonable job 5-10 years later. There is a lot to argue about the various usefulness of those degrees (coming from the business major), but the point being that they had to take on more debt in order to find reasonable jobs.

That’s rough buddy.

Thankful, I work 401(k), which is accounting adjacent. This usually means 50 to 60 hour weeks during tax season, but usually only then.

I love 401k’s - I spend my summers auditing EBPs - which creates another busy season :).

Thanks a lot for sharing. I graduated in 08. I worked first for a company well known for burnout among employees basically a month after graduating. I lasted 1.5 years before I was caught up in post 2008 crash layoffs.

Never been able to trust stable work since that.

I think part of what the unique problem that the millennial workforce is having is that we are working just as hard, if not harder, than previous generations and just aren’t making the same money. We have all seen “the chart” with wage growth vs inflation. We aren’t keeping up. Like you said housing prices are rising way faster than our wages, making it feel like we are adrift at sea with the land of home-ownership slowly fading on the horizon, no matter how hard we paddle.

I think this can also tie into the massive amount of working hours that the millennial workforce is putting in now. Unions are down, corporate culture of staying late and working extra is the norm, and we do all of this yet don’t get ahead. While this phenomenon isn’t unique to our generation, the thought is “put in your time at the grunt level, and you will be rewarded” Those rewards haven’t been materializing, and people are getting burnt out.

Yeah, just for the record, we hate you all. Having an Account ask for everything in early July (if not sooner) and then not get back to us until October 10th is fucking annoying.

Guilty as charged! Can I ask for those disbursement checks for the third time? And the actual canceled checks, not whatever your system is saying, because we don’t understand or trust it. I’ve worked with the whole gamut of custodians and TPAs. Some who are brilliant, and others who shouldn’t be allowed to handle other people’s money.

Damn you! Damn you all!

Especially when you want to make changes to our perfect system.

Or insist on doing everything on a cash basis instead of a accrual basis.

Or want to divide up the earnings in fields that nobody in their right mind uses or cases about.

Or gets things fucking wrong. No you can’t use PS contributions to pay late 401(k) contribution.

Anyway, I am glad I don’t work your hours.

I can relate to everything said here - I also think there is an element of differing values that drives some of the burnout in that it’s often less about people burning out faster per se, but more willing to acknowledge that they are burning out and take action to correct it.

I feel like that younger generations place not only a higher value on health (both physical and mental) compared to the older generations but is more aware of their own statuses and willing to take corrective action then they realize that they are running on fumes compared to others who continue chasing the next status symbol.