Miss World 2002

If by modern society, you mean a society made up of people just like me, then, yes. Not just fundamentalist muslims, but fundamentalist baptists, hassidic jews, jesuits, mormons, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, us fundamentalist baptists…We’re trouble. :)

(Okay, so maybe I’m not that fundamentalist, but still…Funny you’d compare baptists to muslims in the course of this conversation…)

Down south, you very well can be. Been there, dealt with the intolerance.

Not saying anything about you, Murph, you’re cool. But having attended a few fundy Baptist churches in my youth (in the company of various girls I was interested enough in to sit through the “rock and roll is evil” sermons), I’ve been shocked at stuff I’ve heard coming from FB clergy.

is this supposed to be tongue-in-check?

having attended the largest Baptist university in the world during the exact time that the fundamental Baptist churches tried to wrestle control away from the Board of Regents, i would have to say fundamentalism of any form is bad…and in Southern Baptist terms, it is down right evil.

do people actually take pride in having the term “fundamental” applied to their religion? i can’t think of any ‘fundamentalist’ religions that are positive in the way they treat the human race.

Down south, you very well can be. Been there, dealt with the intolerance.

How sad. I’ve heard about it, but never seen it – even applied to somebody else – my entire life. (Not to any “drastic” degree, at least.) I guess I’ve just grown up in good churches. But, then, ‘fundamentalist’ probably doesn’t apply to me or most of the churches I’ve been in, really.

do people actually take pride in having the term “fundamental” applied to their religion? i can’t think of any ‘fundamentalist’ religions that are positive in the way they treat the human race.

I think it used to be good. It’s taken quite a negative connotation lately, but I don’t think anyone’s told the fundamentalists yet.

Going to have to disagree with you on this one, Tom.

Jim, you’re talking about the growing pains of becoming a major world religion. I’m simply saying both early Christianity and almost all of Judaism had to adapt to persecution under a hostile secular (i.e. non-monotheistic) culture. This isn’t something that has happened to Islam, which partially explains its tension with the non-Muslim world.


There is a fundamental (no pun intended) difference in the core of Christianity and Islam. I know this isn’t politically correct and “tolerant” and all that stuff, but I think it is important to understand the roots of the religions, such as Islam, to understand the behaviors. I won’t claim to be a master of Islam, but I did study it pretty hard for a couple of years, including many discussions with practicing Muslims.

Islam has always been a pretty confrontational and militant religion, at its very roots. Mohammed was indeed a pretty ruthless guy, and not apologetic one bit for it. There’s no doubt that The Inquisition and some other nasty things have happened in the name of Christianity. I think, however, you would be hard pressed to read the teachings of Christ and say that these actions came from his teachings (e.g., turn the other cheek, forgive not 7 times but 70 times 70, meekly accepting the torture and taunts when arrested, admonishing Peter for pulling his sword to protect him when he was arrested, asking forgiveness on his executioners, etc. etc. etc.).

Now, look in the history books and in the Quran. Muhammed won his place as the leader of his religion with the sword. He constantly encouraged his followers to seek out and strike down those who were unbelievers. "Believers, fight those of the nonbelievers who are near you, and let them find you tough; and know that God is with those who are God-fearing. (Repentance,At-Tawbah:9:123) The accompanying modern day commentary (by what is considered a very “moderate” sect of Islam): “Encumbered with their pathetic weakness, people will not understand the rules of this religion. Before Muslims fight, they give a warning and offer the other party a choice between three alternatives: To adopt Islam, or to pay the tribute, i.e. jizyah, or to fight.”

The Prophet himself has set out the ethics of war which the Muslim community may fight. Buraidah, a companion of the Prophet, reports: “When the Prophet appointed someone to command an army for an expedition, he would recommend him to be God-fearing in his public and private affairs, and to take care of those who were under his command. Then he would tell them: March by God’s name and to serve His cause. Fight those who deny God. Do not disfigure the bodies of those (enemy soldiers) who are killed. When you meet unbelievers, call upon them to choose one of three alternatives (above). If they choose one of them, accept it from them and do not fight them.”

Another verse from the Quran: ": “He who has not taken part or at least contemplated taking part in a campaign of jihad until the end of his life meets his death holding to a branch of hypocrisy.” Sayyid Qutb’s (a well know Muslim “moderate” teacher) commentary: “Hence, jihad in every form is essential. It must start in people’s hearts and emerge into the real world. That points the way to the inevitable confrontation between armed evil and armed goodness. The well-equipped forces of falsehood in their great numbers must be countered with the well-equipped forces of goodness, other wise it would be a case of suicide or a lack of seriousness which is unbecoming of believers. That requires sacrificing possessions and lives, as Allah has required the believers to do, purchasing all these from them in return for admitting them into heaven. He either gives them victory or martyrdom. It is all with in his prerogative and he makes his decision on the basis of his wisdom. As for them, He has promised them one of the two best achievements. All people die when time comes, but only those who fight for Allah’s cause can be martyrs.”

There are many, many more, i.e. this isn’t selective cut and paste. Muhammed “won” his kingdom and religion militarily, and it reflects in the basic tenets.

What about those Muslim nations of old, like the Almohad Dynasty or the Ottoman Empire? Weren’t they bastions of science, art, and trade? Can a modern Muslim nation like that exist in today’s world?

Not unless they appoint Tom Chick as supreme leader to teach them tolerance, humility, and LAN gaming.

It’s not really about religion. It’s the mob psychology of poor people rallying together to fight a perceived injustice against their class. We get the same thing here with our “kill the white man” race riots. Europeans have to deal with their football hooligans.[/quote]

Don’t forget about the idiot American Football fans. Not quite the murderous rampage, but anny excuse to tear shit up is good enough for some. (See the destruction after any Pro/college championship win. Basketball, too. Or even an undefeated season at Ohio State.)

Don't forget about the idiot American Football fans. Not quite the murderous rampage, but anny excuse to tear shit up is good enough for some.

And don’t forget about idiot babies, who can be a real handful, especially when gassy and in groups. It’s a big extreme sports style leap from fistfights and petty vandalism to hunting down Christians, hanging fuel-filled tires around their necks, and then lighting the whole ingenious contraption on fire.

Yeah, how you can compare a sports-related riot that damages mainly property to the Miss World debacle, in which the mob went on a bloodthirsty rampage specifically killing and maiming innocent bystanders is beyond me.

I was really speaking more to the mob mentality Roger Wong brought up. People joining causing destruction. The greater the numbers the greater the destruction exponentially.

I in no way think a bunch of stupid revelers compares to the Miss World tragedy. A spark seems to set groups off in a number of ways in different arenas. I did not mean to make light of that tragedy. Sorry it came off that way.

What about those Muslim nations of old, like the Almohad Dynasty or the Ottoman Empire? Weren’t they bastions of science, art, and trade? Can a modern Muslim nation like that exist in today’s world?[quote]Not unless they appoint Tom Chick as supreme leader to teach them tolerance, humility, and LAN gaming.

I’ll only do it if I can pick one of the Miss World 2002 contestants as one of my wives.


Oh okay, I see your point. It’s just that it seems it doesn’t even take a spark to set off certain fundamentalist groups into bloodthirsty rage. A situation that might warrant a picket line, peaceful protest, or boycott call here instead incites murderous rampage there.


I am fed up with being politically correct about Islam. Show me any other religion that justifies spreading the word of God by exacting bloody revenge against anyone who is not Islam.

Islam is a breeding ground for murderous mobs and terrorists. It is no mere coincidence that every time this world suffers a terrorist incident it has stemmed from Islam.

And then Islamic priests have the gall to state their religion is non-violent … not bloody likely.

The sooner this fucked up religion is wiped off this planet the better for the whole human race.

Yeah, except notice how all the anti-Islam posts are anonymous, because we’re all freaked that some crazed bastard seeking a few dozen virgins in the afterlife will declare a jihad on our asses.

These looney toons have no idea the damage they’re doing to Islam. All of the normal, non-radical followers of the religion are going to pay a price because of this. Not to mention the ones who already have, such as thousands of innocents in Afghanistan.

I’ve gone from a very tolerant “every religion is just a different view of God, let’s all just get along” attitude to wanting to somehow just erect a giant force field over Israel and the Middle East and peeking back under it 1,000 years from now to see who’s left alive. These primitive wackos belong in the middle ages, but they have no right to try to take the rest of the world back there.

The only solution is to spread western decadence as soon as possible. People who make good livings, live in comfortable homes, and own lots of computer and video games have no incentive to give it all up for some wacked out superstitious jihad bullshit.

Stop making fun of my invisible friend!

Yeah, but then you mind end up with giant, super-intelligent cockroaches!! Or worse yet, a race of DAMNED DIRTY APES!!! DAMN YOU!!! YOU BLEW IT UP!!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

Is it just me, or are we making some serious over-generalizations here?

Now, I’m not going to deny that there are many who interpret Islam as being supportive of a holy war against non-Muslims; we all know that’s true. However, to say that all of Islam is made up of wild-eyed intolerant fundamentalists is going a little bit too far.

In many respects, Islam is a lot like Christianity. When you hear about Islam in the news, who do you hear about? The wackos, because that’s what’s newsworthy – who cares about anyone who’s not nuts? When you hear about Christianity in the news, who do you hear about? Hypocritical religious leaders (child molesting priests, embezzling ministers, hooker-chasing televangelists) and truly far out folks (pro-lifers who believe they’re in a holy war and need to kill those who disagree with them).

The bigger different, IMHO, is the governments that are dominant in the West vs. in the Muslim world. For us, we bitch and moan about the system but generally have reasonably just governments. They’re not perfect, by any stretch, but they’re not tyrannical. In the Muslim world, you have monarchies and tyrannies, but precious few democracies. As a result, the masses – who live in poverty, have no voice in government, and get the sharp end of the stick from their own political leaders, who live rather well – are left with virtually no outlets for showing their displeasure. Furthermore, the regimes in these countries actively support an anti-Western agenda precisely because it allows the masses to vent their political dissent in a way that doesn’t threaten the stability of the regime. Remember how no one in the Arab world would believe Arabs were responsible for 9/11 – all the buzz was that it was an American conspiracy to attack Muslims? That kind of incredible suspicion is actively encouraged by many of our “allies” in the Muslim world.

While radical Islam is responsible for the insanity we see happening today, Islam is not, by its fundamental nature, a radical and “evil” religion. While Christians were out burning books and heretics who believed in science, Islam was preserving those same tomes and actively supporting science. In terms of politics, the position of religious leaders in some Islamic countries today is not too different from the role religious leaders played in the West until the late 18th century (the American and French Revolutions finally made the separation between Church and State work!) Islam hasn’t had a corresponding revolution, so it’ll be interesting to watch that play out…

One more problem the Islamic world has had: really, really bad press relations. Maybe it’s the fault of the networks, but post-9/11 I haven’t seen a single good Muslim commentator. They are always hedging and posing “them and us” scenarios, which is precisely the wrong way to represent your community at a time of national unity.

Our problem in the Islamic world today is, IMHO, as much an issue with their political institutions as it is with the mullahs. Unless benevolent dictatorship makes a rapid appearance on the scene or an acceptable representative government evolved, the lack of any sort of useful government in these countries is going to be the cause of war in the Muslim world (either civil war or war with the West). It’ll be interesting to see if Iraq (post-US invasion) can be steered in the direction of becoming a real democratic government.

Just my $.02. You are now being returned to your regular programming…

One fundamental problem with a democratic government in a truly Muslim nation is that Muhammed and Islam taught that there is no difference in religion and government: they are, in Islam, completely integrated by the teachings in the Quran. So any government that is not a Islam based and Islam focused government will never be acceptable to fundamental Muslims.

That’s one reason I’m really nervous about the long term stability of any democratic government that anyone tries to establish in Iraq.