MMORPG me

Games
101

Is it the PvP in DAoC that makes it feel better? The different realms? The customizability of character builds?

The reason I ask is that, to me, DAoC feels more restrictive. You need a healer per group and a tank per group and a mezzer per group and probably speed too (although some of those can run together in some realms), which to me seems to offer less variety in how groups can play.

Now, if you’re soloing I think the characteristic experience for fighting is a lot more similar in CoH than DAoC, because there are about 6 different class archetypes in DAoC (Pet class, beating tank, casting light tank, healer, damage caster, trick/utility caster) vs. CoH’s 5. But I have trouble looking at these games from the soloing viewpoint since, frankly, I’ve yet to find one where soloing isn’t always the least palatable option.

(The depth statement really caught me because people always hold up EQ as a bastion of depth, when to me EQ is about as linear as it gets, and just has a long, long, long linear path to go down due to all the content addition at this point. Then again, I’m tempted to call “depth” the ability to do radically different things, making SWG the winner in my mind simply because of the fact you can go all the way from a combat drone to a competitive dancer.)

102

DAOC’s sorta like an RPG Planetside. You grind PvE only when PvP is getting boring (which is rare) or when you need money/equipment.

103

Mouselock, actually most all of my time these days is in the WoW beta, which has pretty much taken over my gaming time. I agree DAoC is more restrictive than either CoH or WoW, but it’s also more intricate, simply in the huge variety of “stuff” you have to deal with. Sometimes I like that, it reminds me of my wargaming background–fiddling with realm abilities, master level abilities, weapon styles, spells, crowd control, stuff like that. Sometimes I like that. Sometimes the set-piece battle feel of setting up a group in DAoC for PvE encounters is like playing a tactical wargame. Sometimes the PvP aspect (which is my favorite part of the game) is like a big, complex shooter with less twitch factor and more tangible rewards.

Other times it’s all a bit too much. WoW, OTOH, while it is sitll very much a work in progress, already has combat that is viscerally more fun than DAoC, in its mechanics; a truly superb look and artistic “feel,” that is on par at least with DAoC; and a much much more friendly solo environment (though oddly enough I almost always duo or group in WoW anyhow). What WoW lacks is a purpose for the rudimentary PvP system that’s just begining now, and fully fleshed out race/classes–every mage is like every other mage at the moment.

It’s entirely possible for games to be deep and restrictive. DAoC is like that–it penalized casual play far more than CoH does, has a higher learning curve and barrier to entry, and delays the good stuff too long, yet it also is the sort of game people can (and do) dive into full-force, with spreadsheets, calculators, min-maxing, elaborate strategies and tactics, etc. Only the high-level raiding stuff in EQ really comes close to that level of complexity (or may even exceed it). Games like CoH so far neither require, or support, such compulsive behavior. That is either a good or bad thing I suppose, though I prefer to just see it as different.

104

It is now maybe. It wasn’t a month ago unless you were 45+.

That still doesn’t address my question, though, except indirectly inasmuch as you would tend to consider PvP combat to be the depth that DAoC brings. (Which, given the far better capabilities of other players vs. NPC monsters I would tend to agree.) That’s not in my mind the same thing as “play” depth (i.e. providing a player with multiple things to do). It’s still all combat, all the time. It is, however, far more likely to be nice and diverse combat now. (Which reminds me I really should log in my cabby and go check out the appropriate battleground now that there’s likely to be a population count there that’s >0 and not everyone’s ubertwinked L35 alt, against which I wouldn’t stand a chance).

105

Okay, that doesn’t go very far into explaining why WoW vs. CoH for you, though. It doesn’t sound as if WoW has the “depth” that DAoC has (which you indicated earlier as the reason to quit CoH and focus on DAoC). Is it just the initial rush of learning the new systems in WoW that has you in it’s thrall right now?

Don’t get me wrong, what I’ve seen of WoW indicates a combat model that’s more varied (a la CoH) than DAoC. If it can do that and still capture the excitement of DAoC’s PvP (along with the relative balance - in terms of MMOs DAoC is an exquisite product in terms of even balance between teams for the breadth of character choice available), I can see where it could be a huge force in the market. I’m just trying to get a secondhand feel for WoW from someone whose perspective I can at least partially sync with, and you’re about as close on the boards as I’ve come so far. ;) (Mind you, I wouldn’t have to do this if those bastards at Blizzard had chosen my name randomly out of a hat! ;) )

It’s entirely possible for games to be deep and restrictive.

Surely. But people tend to throw around words like depth and fun and reward as if they had some objective universal standard, so I’m endlessly asking folks to define what they mean by it in order to form some basis of comparison.

And I am, of course, innately interested in watching all the different MMOs evolve. CoH for example, by it’s own admission, cares more about nailing the initial mechanics first and adding the rest in later. I think this works for a lot of folks, but it fails spectacularly for some as well. Other games tend to focus on broad ideals and assume the players will stick it out until the mechanics are brought into line, and that doesn’t seem to work well either. Trying to actually make a good MMO for a broad audience seems pretty complex, and I’m all about trying to figure out patterns in complex design spaces, so I get overly inquisitive and such.

106

Hmm, good questions. I guess WoW is better for me than CoH because 1) I like the setting better (no, I never get tired of elves and dwarves I guess, and I never was a comic book fan); 2) the world seems more, well, a world, with much more compelling geography, settings, and variety than CoH’s largley urban, largely cubic cityscapes; 3) there is a lot more to do than just fight. Exploration–in addition to minor exp rewards, some of the places you see are simply spectacular in their own right–is viable and fun, trade skills while underdeveloped right now are interesting in small doses, the quests run the gamut from kill tasks to fedex and more interesting stuff (and are usually humorously written), and of course there’s PvP.

But mostly it comes down to me not being able to really “get” the comic book super hero setting of CoH. That and the lack of stuff–loot, armor, weapons, items, etc. I like “stuff.”

107

About CoH vs. WoW there’s a post buried here:
http://www.corpnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=772&start=20

In particular if you follow the links in my post. I recommend to read the articles of Geldon and Darniaq at Grimwell.

Everyone likes “stuff” when it’s a system that adds to the gameplay. It’s “content” that CoH misses, it seems. What I mean is that the loot isn’t strictly important but it’s still a valuable content that could or couldn’t be in the game. If you don’t have it you’ll probably need to replace it with something else.

I think that the general feel is that CoH feels lacking. I notice a diffuse disaffection (as I imagined) toward the game but Cryptic confirmed that they are near to 200k accounts. It sounds strange to me.

108

Well that’s a whole different debate–what “play depth” actually is. I, for instance, believe it’s on a by-game basis–the depth of DAOC comes from group tactics, self-knowledge (ie, of your character), equipment tweaking, and specialization point spending. The depth of Everquest comes in very large part from group tactics–thus group tactics seems much more interesting and “deep” than in DAOC, leading to a more (imo) satisfying PvE experience. PvP suffers from that fact, however–DAOC’s PvP is much better developed than EQ’s, simply because PvP was part of DAOC’s design doc from the getgo.

In your case, you believe multiple and varied experiences constitute play depth–and there are MMOs that offer that (UO and SWG being the big ones, perhaps Horizons). My point is, “depth” is a relative thing. I find CoH to be atrociously shallow, but I’ve read (and heard) some great arguments against that notion. True, a more detailed game will generally seem “deeper” to more people than a less detailed game, but a solid portion of what one considers “depth” comes from what one expects from the game itself.

109

Well that’s a whole different debate–what “play depth” actually is.
[/quote]

Yep, all true. And not really a debate per se; your idea of depth is just as valid for you as mine is for me. I just find it hard to discuss with folk who believe it’s universal instead of subjective.

On a side note, you actually tried PvP in EQ? You poor, poor wretch. My deepest sympathies. (I really, truly believe that EQ PvP is left in place primarily to siphon off the 10% most undesirable element in the game who would otherwise go to Bluebie servers. Not that all PvP loving folks are such, but everything I read indicates that the scum of Norrath tends to gravitate to the grief-fests that the EQ PvP servers are.)

110

I played on Tallon Zek, the racewar server.

PvP in EQ is… slow. Damage is greatly scaled down in PvP–if you’re hitting for 120 against a monster, you’d hit a player in the 50s. This isn’t just because the player has a better AC or phat lewt–there’s actual code in place to, well, slow down PvP combat.

The scum of Norrath probably does come to the PvP servers, yes. But the morons stay out. And when it comes to EQ, I’ll take the scum over the morons any day of the week.

EQ’s undergone many changes to prevent griefing in PvP, and it shows. There are still times when a jackass will attempt to “train” you, (drag a bunch of agressive monsters on top of you, then zone out, making the monsters forget about him but target you), but from my experience, griefing is rare. I’ve been in PvP encounters where I’ve lost experience, (you’re not supposed to, but if you’re fighting a monster and are attacked by a player and the monster gets the last hit, you lose exp), and the individual apologizes, or pays for a 96% rez, or gets a guildie of his to rez me. OTOH, for every nine polite people there’s one l337 d00d that tells you to fuck your mother, but they only show up in highly populated exp zones like Paladual Caverns or Highhold Keep.

As you grow bigger and stronger on a PvP EQ server, the morons start to steadily disappear. It’s awful around level 20–basically, if you see a short (dwarf, gnome, or halfling) in good gear, he/she will attempt to kill you. It’s OK around level 30 (morons abound in HHK though) and it’s rare in 40+ (though jealous assholes will try to gank you at the Hill Giants/Ice Giants–classic money farming spots).

Still, after playing on a PvP server, I could never go back to a blue. The world’s just not as vivid and interesting without PvP.

111

Actually I was referring to a number of posts I’ve been reading about top guilds cockblocking and generally doing very un-cool stuff to others trying to advance (and we’re talking guilds trying to get into Time or through the elemental planes here, not trying to get out of Highhold Keep). The main thing I enjoy about EQ at this point is doing the large, multi-group type encounters. I can vaguely imagine still doing it in PvP world, although it’d screw up my preferred way of doing such things (small numbers, solid tactics, good execution). But the stuff I’m hearing involves hacking the client to pop around, getting trained despite the rules against it, etc… that’s not exciting, that’s just annoying. DAoC is infinitely better built in order to actually give a reasonable PvP experience, I think, although it still pisses me off when I see folks bragging about causing other players exp-loss deaths. I’m all for the competition against other folks, even if I’m the loser every time I have fun. Just being an ass to others for the sake of doing so never worked for me.

112

I have to somewhat back up Ebonstone about EQ PvP, Sullon Zek was full of some of the crustiest, scummiest, most bitter people you will ever run into. Man, that server was hardcore. A lot of so-called PvP guilds came over to SZ and just got ran off by the all-out take no prisoners atmosphere.

113

Actually I was referring to a number of posts I’ve been reading about top guilds cockblocking and generally doing very un-cool stuff to others trying to advance (and we’re talking guilds trying to get into Time or through the elemental planes here, not trying to get out of Highhold Keep). The main thing I enjoy about EQ at this point is doing the large, multi-group type encounters. I can vaguely imagine still doing it in PvP world, although it’d screw up my preferred way of doing such things (small numbers, solid tactics, good execution). But the stuff I’m hearing involves hacking the client to pop around, getting trained despite the rules against it, etc… that’s not exciting, that’s just annoying. DAoC is infinitely better built in order to actually give a reasonable PvP experience, I think, although it still pisses me off when I see folks bragging about causing other players exp-loss deaths. I’m all for the competition against other folks, even if I’m the loser every time I have fun. Just being an ass to others for the sake of doing so never worked for me.[/quote]
Oh, of course. Pandemonium. AKA, the worst people ever to be born.

Want to know what it takes to even be CONSIDERED for Pandemonium?

-Level 65
-100 AA Points (1AA Point costs the same amount of exp it takes to get from level 51 to 52).
-Full Elemental Gear

Then, you have to have friends inside the guild.

Then, you’re on a probationary membership (no loot, must attend all events) for a month.

Then you’re a member of the guild.

Pandemonium was just breaking into Time when I left. They kill anyone they see, and will often camp the zone-ins to Gates of Discord and the Elemental Planes. One Pande can take out six decently equipped 65s. (Pandes, by rule, have over 350 Magic Resistance) And there’s never a time less than 20 of them are on.

I was given the only advice you can be regarding Pandemoniums–if you see one, run. They’re like agents from the fucking Matrix–stand and fight, and you’ll die, no questions.

114

Now here in a nutshell is the essential dichotomy about PvP in MMOs. Being a PvPer myself I see both sides:

Design RightBrain: Dear God, that’s broken. Being stomped with no chance of fighting back is the epitome of NotFun.
Adrenaline LeftBrain: Dear God, that’s cool. Imagine the rush you would get if you DID take one out…

115

How in all that is blazingly hot can catass fucking griefing morons like this have “friends”?

Then, you’re on a probationary membership (no loot, must attend all events) for a month.

Just imagine what kind of good times must be had by all at events put on by this bunch of winners.
Remind me to stick with CoH.

116

[quote=“Old_Man_Gravy”]

How in all that is blazingly hot can catass fucking griefing morons like this have “friends”?

Then, you’re on a probationary membership (no loot, must attend all events) for a month.

Just imagine what kind of good times must be had by all at events put on by this bunch of winners.
Remind me to stick with CoH.[/quote]Events = raids, pvp, etc.

Friends = allied guilds.

117

The Sullon Zek evil alliance had the nicest, most helpful players I ever met in my time spent across five different EQ servers. On top of that, that underlying thrill of not knowing what danger may be lurking is something that becomes hard to give up. Shadowbane captured a little of that thrill, but I felt the underlying game was weak.

118

hmm…

I have to admit that my first reaction is to wonder why the devs don’t stomp them out of existence, ban them permanently, and make it clear that NOBODY is going to hold content hostage against the outside world.

I mean, it basically sounds like they can permanently guard the entrance points to areas with the best loot and insure that nobody can ever actually win against them as long as they keep their guard up, simply because nobody will have the equipment to do so. Is this impression correct?

119

hmm…

I have to admit that my first reaction is to wonder why the devs don’t stomp them out of existence, ban them permanently, and make it clear that NOBODY is going to hold content hostage against the outside world.

I mean, it basically sounds like they can permanently guard the entrance points to areas with the best loot and insure that nobody can ever actually win against them as long as they keep their guard up, simply because nobody will have the equipment to do so. Is this impression correct?[/quote]
You’re completely correct.

When I played, the guild I was in predicted it would be a year and a half to two years before they’d be strong enough to reach Time (beating Pandes along the way) if Pande stayed frozen as they were. Of course this will never happen, they’ll grow right along with everyone else, and they’ll always be dominant.

Pandemonium is like the mob. If I was a level 65 with 100 AAs, of course I’d join Pande–I’d want the protection. Of course, it’d pretty much be a miracle for anyone to get 65 with 100 AAs with Pande around in the first place, but the most catass of the catasses do it, and Pande rewards them with a month of utter distrust followed by six of normal distrust.

But, they’re paying customers like everyone else. They’ve been around since… well, since I can remember. I’ve quit and re-joined EQ three or four times, always making a point to at least stop by Tallon-Zek, and they’ve always been there. Pandemonium once petitioned a GM to resolve a zone problem–and get this–they managed to kill him. They killed a GM. Even with the GM’s insta-cast gear, almost impossible to hit AC and stuff, Pandemonium ganked him.

This is Pandemonium. The server exists in a state of hopelessness, because no one will ever reach the level of power they have without joining them first–thus, no one can rationally oppose them. GMs refuse to admit there’s an issue–Pandemonium has done nothing against the CoC, after all. They’re Norrath’s Third Reich, except there’s no USA to come to the rescue. This is Pandemonium; this is Tallon Zek.

120

Bah. It never once got to be 40 degrees below zero last winter in Boston… And the proof is, it doesn’t snow when it gets that cold, and it was snowing all the time last winter. Hmm… on mature consideration that may not be the world’s best recommendation for Turbine East after all… :roll:

“Come work for us, you probably won’t die of the cold.”