MMORPG's and PvP: The Line

Games
41

The entire point of PvP is to throw dirt in your opponents eyes. If it were even, you’d have equal gear distributions, rules like “No potions, no timers!” and all sorts of other stuff.

I play PvP for that chaotic feel. Maybe it’s because my first MMO was UO, and I loved the hell out of it. I never actually PvPed in UO either. I was always on the recieving end, but it offered me a lot of great challenges that were developed by other players.

I learned to run off of the roads and find new routes to places rather than on the roads where gankers camped. I learned to rearrange my bags into tricky systems to prevent stealing at the bank. That sort of fun stuff is what gives me joy in a game.

I think there’s another camp of PvP people, somewhere inbetween the duel style ‘everything should be equal’ camp, and the chaotic camp. Where, at least you get to see your opponent before you get jumped, and you can choose or not choose to put yourself in that camp. It seems like they at least want parts of the world where they can go and get a little bit of that chaotic taste.

I guess that’s all I’m saying: The complaints about it “Not being fair” or “Not being even” makes me think I have a completely different concept and joy of PvP than anyone else.

I get excited when a rogue stabs me in the back while I’m fighting a monster, and I go looking for revenge. When someone corpse camps me, it’s a completely different challenge (where, if they have epic mounts and can track me down, then playing a different character for a few minutes is certainly a solution).

The chaos and imbalance are exactly what PvP is for me. It’s a nice spice to mix in with the completely calculable PvE portion of the game.

42

Oinkfs, I TOTALLY agree with you. I think that your post nails it perfectly. Without that PVP chaos I wouldn’t have had nearly as many great adventures and stories to tell. You’re not alone in your love of the chaotic nature of PVP. PVP is the spice of life in the lands of Azeroth.

43

Genius.

44

The chaos and imbalance are exactly what PvP is for me. It’s a nice spice to mix in with the completely calculable PvE portion of the game.

I guess it’s a question of whether you are willing to “roll with” the added obstacles of griefing, or whether you perceive them as annoyances that get in the way of the power progression that is the core of the pve game. To the extent that I’ve played on a pvp server – gotten a little ways into gankland (low 30s) – I’m sort of on the fence. Yeah it’s kinda cool having to look over your shoulder and it feels good to win a tough fight, but corpse runs are sheer downtime and I don’t really like being at the mercy of some 13 year old to do that to me. I also take some pleasure in the efficiency of burning through quests and obviously that efficiency is cut down when your quests are in a region where there may be a lot of the opposite faction. I think it has to do with your mental gear-shifting mechanism as much as anything.

It is interesting how it affects your psychology though. On a carebear server I would usually just not get involved in other people’s pvp fights because I didn’t want to flag myself. On a pvp server, I’m already flagged, so there is no reason not to help someone else who is in a bind. Especially since if he dies, the guy who killed him is probably coming for you next.

I do however hear pvpers say that they would find it boring to play on a pve server. I never found that to be the case… carebear WoW was insanely addictive for me. Maybe once you’ve gone pvp you can’t go back – dunno.

45

I think for those players, the PvE portion of the game is just a vehicle for the PvP part. They do it, just because they have to. I know a lot of the hardcore players are angry at WoW becuase it’s not PvP-able enough.

They want to be able to loot items from kills, take ears, gold, and all sorts of other things. I used to read guildvsguild.com (which has terrible ‘writers’, but good video and story links).

The posters on that site, in typical 13 year old fashion, tend to call everything ‘gay’ that isn’t the hardcore of the hardcore. It’s interesting to read through some of it, but I don’t recommend discussing it with them.

I don’t think they realize how that wouldn’t work in a game like WoW. You need items to be much more perishable for something like that to work. At least if that were in place, though, more PvP would = more gear directly, and they could skip the PvE part altogether. I suppose that would permanently make PvE players prey, as well. They don’t seem to have too high of an attitude about those types of players, so that’s not really a negative for them in their system.

So, to straddle those two fields, we have instanced PvP. Personally, I think the instanced PvP is fun, but it takes a lot of that chaotic feeling away. It feels more like a playdate than a satisfying virtual shanking.

“Hey Billy, ask your mom if it’s ok for me to come over friday, and punch you in the face.”

I like surprising people. I like being surprised. I sure as hell like there being a disparity in numbers as well. The instanced PvP takes all of that away.

EDIT: I think what I’m getting at is the current PvP rules, and the current PvE rules aren’t really doing that great a job of satisfying a lot of the demands present. And it’s not just a “We need more protection from griefing!”, it’s a “we need protection for some players, and more danger for others.”

46

I think for those players, the PvE portion of the game is just a vehicle for the PvP part. They do it, just because they have to. I know a lot of the hardcore players are angry at WoW becuase it’s not PvP-able enough.

I think it’s also a question of where you are coming from. Some people may be coming at WoW from multiplayer games like, I dunno, Warcraft 3 or Counterstrike or whatever. Pvp is the gameplay. To me, as a predominantly single-player RPG fan, I was most interested by WoW’s PVE content and saw it as an end in itself. Even on a pvp server I very much perceive pvp as an “adjunct” to the main game. It’s interesting of course that other players have precisely the opposite view. And the design challenge is to somehow allow both perspectives to exist in a satisfying way.

47

Well, I would argue that it’s not griefing, and it’s not an obstacle–it’s simply the way the game and the world works.

Ah yes, there we are a little bit south of Darkshire. I would often be the “bait” in the middle of the road. That’s Novocaine hiding behind a tree. Good times, good times.

48

Bill, those were some of the best times I had in WOW. I guess my freeze trap just expired. We would usually have one in the middle of the road. Great screenshot.

But we were not without mercy. Once we joined a raid on Asharra(?) with a bunch of 30-40s. We let this nice elf go after she convinced us that she had done the horde no wrong. What a great game!

49

Well, I would argue that it’s not griefing, and it’s not an obstacle–it’s simply the way the game and the world works.

Obstacles can be part of gameplay. This is why there are difficulty settings on videogames and some people prefer “easy” to “hard.” Of course griefing on a pvp server is “the way the game and the world works,” but that’s not mutually exclusive with it being an obstacle to achieving the goals of completing quests, anymore than an angry murloc is. People vary in how much a degree of adversity they want to overcome to get to the positive-feedback part of the game. People also vary in what they want to focus on – pvp or pve content… not everyone likes both equally. If all you want to do is play the pve content, then being ganked by the opposing faction is not part of the fun, but an impediment to it, and so you would be wise to roll on a carebear server, where it is not the way the game and the world works.

50

I’m pretty sick of PvP on my server. Used to add a bit of excitement up to and including STV, but beyond that it’s just been an annoyance.

Basically end up being rogue bait most of the time with my druid char and, unlike when I had a warr, I have almost zero chance to beat a rogue that attacks me. Only chance would be if I still had most my hp and a stack of rage in bear form, then I could fight, heal with frenzied regen if needed, bash if needed then shift and heal, root etc.

However typically I get attacked when in combat so bash is cooling down, only real chance is shifting out, war stomp (yay tauren) and root, then get away and heal.

I think rogues can vanish out of root though, so need to faerie fire them immediately also, which adds a delay in there during which time I am either getting pummelled or about to get pummelled. Usually I end up getting gouged which interrupts my spells, and am dead soon after. Pretty infuriating.

Has put me off most pvp really - if alliance chars are working the same area, I’ll usually moonfire their mob, wave and run off. Haven’t had much problem. Been quite amusing grinding Timbermaw rep in Felwood and having 4 horde and 2 alliance all fighting over the mobs but nobody attacking each other. Surprising restraint.

So … pvp does add some excitement that I enjoy but unfortunately most of the realization of that is just rogues appearing behind me and killing me in about 5 seconds. Not so hot.

51

One problem with WoW and PvP is that, as a very solo-friendly game from 1-59, it encourages (duh!) solo play. Solo play is not the safest thing in the world in an open PvP environment, unless you’re a stealth class out ganking (and even then it’s dangerous). Experience grinding or questing in a group is far safer.

Also, WoW’s implementation of stealth skews the balance in favor of stealthers, sort of like DAOC’s version. I’m interested in EQ2’s new PvP setup in this regard because stealth is much less powerful, though still useful.

52

Stealth has always been a problem in PvP in these games. It really is an unfair advantage, but the stealth classes are built around invisibility so it’s difficult to do much about it.

In DAoC it got to be very frustrating because an assassin could just about one-shot my caster. WoW’s a bit better about this, but casters (other than warlocks) don’t have any margin for error. And of course in WoW (and other games) stealthers who wait for the target to engage in combat are nearly unbeatable.

53

I think anyone in WoW can do a decent job of building up anti-rogue defenses. Get potions, engineering gear, a high-defense/outlast spec.

The problem with that is all the things you have to give up in order to assuage your fear of rogues. It’s sort of like speccing for duels, or for solo grinding elites.

54

I read an excellent post on the WoW forums last week describing precisely why everyone hates rogues so much.

It amounted to the fact that pretty much any class can beat a rogue quite handily in a “fair” fight. That is, if the rogue doesn’t surprise his target and attack from stealth, he loses. Rogues have trouble winning duels (where PVP combat is fully anticipated) because of this. It goes even beyond that, though. Almost every class has a specific “anti-rogue” ability (deathcoil and overpower, for example), so rogues have been forced to use stunlock tactics if they are to have any chance of success. Obviously, nobody likes to be the victim of a fight where they have no chance to react at all, so we get all the forum whiners lobbying (with great effect) to nerf rogues. What’s happened, though, is that rogues are using the only method they have that gives them a chance to win.

It makes sense to me. I play a rogue on a PVE server and have never ganked anyone ever. All the crybabies are starting to annoy me with patch after patch seeing rogues nerfed. If Blizzard gave rogues another viable PVP tactic other than making one’s target helpless and unable to react, the rogue class might not be as hated as it is.

55

In EQ2, stealth classes have a fair number of options other than stealth attacks, including a lot of positionals. They also have AoE and the ability to stealth while in combat (often tough to do but doable). In turn, in PvP, you can see stealthed people of your level, roughly, about 30 yards away as shimmering outlines, and lower level stealthers farther away. Stealth becomes, theoretically, good for taking out the unsuspecting and in making groups less conspicuous, but it won’t be a total lock. Of course, that’s only possible because the stealth classes are more versatile than WoW Rogues, too, IMO.

56

Even if you build up that stuff if the rogue waits until you’re in the middle of a pull it’s going to be difficult.

My hunter can handle rogues easily most of the time, but a patient rogue will wait until a mob trips my ice trap and then attack. If he has crippling poison on, it’s not easy for my hunter.

57

That sounds like a better solution. I always liked the stealth in Planetside the best because it A) wasn’t absolute unless you were sitting still B) limited your inventory space to pistol weapons and C) had a reasonable but shortlived counter in dark sight. It required skill to kill people with that system. I realize the MMOFPS isn’t the same as the MMORPG but they clearly put a lot of thought into how they implemented stealth. I think other games could learn a lot from their system.

– Xaroc

58

I was killing time and looking at the PVP info on the WoW site, and two things struck me as funny.

First, on the “random PVP tips” page, they say that the “early” contested regions are high-PVP areas because everyone is new to it and likely to fight to experience PVP. That as you get into higher level areas, this tendency drops noticably because high-level fights take longer and it’s harder to chase people down.

This is a joke. Any high-level zone with an endgame instance is gank-tastic. It’s overbalanced with 60s going to and from the instance, who are all to happy to blast anyone doing level appropriate questing/grinding (cough Searing Gorge cough).

The other laffer was the paragraph about “dishonorable” actions. Among them were killing enemies much lower level than you, taunting people you’ve killed, and corpse camping/re-killing enemies. I use quotes because they say dishonorable, but fairly clearly indicate that it’s more that people will dislike you if you do those things (because there is no dishonor system).

59

As Bill always says, Hunters are to Rogues the way destroyers are to subs. Hunters are built to kill rogues. I don’t think I ever lost a fight to a rogue after hitting 60 as a hunter.

I don’t see how a mob can hit your ice trap. Just set it behind you. The mob should be on your pet? But even if you aggro the mob just don’t back over the trap and finish it in melee. I’ve actually caught rogues this way. They pounce once they see that you’ve aggroed the mob, then pop, they’re frozen.

I did once have a rogue disarm my trap but I actually saw the little animation of the trap flying apart (it’s weird because the disarm looks like little gears and such, like a mechanical trap has be disarmed) and so I just did a jumping spin scattershot. I bet it scared the hell out of him. Then I killed him.