More AoE III

Games
21

Yea I just had a rather unfun game. First Ill say I have only played about 20 games, so I am not sure about my economy yet. However, by the time I got age 3, one guy had…

The imperial age…
Spies…
A port blockade.

That is some kind of ninja teching there. I have no idea how he could do it. I mean I was struggling for gold, there was no way for me to even think about the imperial age let alone the super expensive blockades AND spies.

I looked at the end techs, some of them are nice, some of them are not. Still my opinon has not changed about leveling up cities and the crap cards. I am still playing this trying to find a deeper dimension to it, however I have a feeling there isn’t anything to find. Its the same old crap, so far…

Crank out villages, tech up and just start pumping out the units like crazy. Who ever masters the first two wins. At least in C&C generals it seemed that it wasn’t all a zerg fest which is the ONLY thing AoE III is about, or so far it seems to be that way.

Another minor issue is why are defenses so damm weak in this game? Walls that can easly be shot down by redcoats (or whatever the english guys are). Or calvary with swords whacking down a stone wall. Its just plain stupid. Walls should be completly immune to all damage EXCEPT from artillery. Yea I know no RTS games does that, though they should (hint developers reading this). But it seems that in AoE III the walls and gates are made out of cardboard.

Also, what the hell is the point of forts? I know what they are supposed to represent, a strong point of fortification. However they are anything but that. Thier guns are hardly impressive. I think I had 15 grenaders take down a fort once with no other help. I lost like 2 gernade guys I think. LAME,

What forts should be, is a bastion of protection. Taking one should be very hard which adds great value to stategic placement. They should have thier own garrison of units that auto defend it. 20 calvary, 20 infantry, 20 ranged attacks. Basically one group of 20 of each type and counter type. Then if the fort is attacked or an enemy gets in range, these guys pop out and attack what they are good at attacking, like the calvary should head strait for any artillery attacking the fort. These troops regenerate at noramal build rates only when the fort is not in combat. Addtionally the fort should rain down arrows and have a few heavy duty battle engines on them. Now that would make a force to be reconded with. The big disadvatge is the fort can never move, so place it wisely. Right now all forts are just some XP and a minor inconvience. I think for mortas will kill a fort in 3 volleys.

22

I was going to say that you ought to just play Command and Conquer if you want game changing techs and super weapons, with a less obtrusive economy.

Age games try to combine military with economic strategy. I just lost to a guy whom completely dominated me and yet gathered at least 10,000 fewer resources. How? As the Portuguese, he advanced to Imperial Age before i could stop him, used his free Town Centers to create a perimeter of defense, and shipped two Factories over. He made nothing but Halbediers and Heavy Cannon. And Imperial Halbediers are strong enough to charge straight into Fortress Age Musketeers and Longbowmen and win. Even though my economy was significantly better i simply had no chance against his more powerful forces. I beat off a couple of rounds of attacks, but victory was beyond my grasp.

And yet, at other times, i’ve easily beaten players through attrition.

The cards are quite powerful if you know how to use them - most of the time. The +10% cards really are kind of crappy, but even so they still have their place on occasion. There is a huge difference between a player that ships two villager card shipments, and a player that chooses the Explorer upgrade and a military card. As the game goes on unit cards become less valuable and the percentage cards moreso; so, do you invest in your early game, in your late game, in your economy, ect.

But honestly, go play C&C Generals or Dawn of War. They seem to be for what you’ve been looking.

23

I am sure some of the cards are strong. A factory that cranks out free artillery (espeically if you can’t even build it) is great. However most of the cards are crap.

Id love to play Zero hour more, but I stopped because it was hard to get in a game where someone didn’t cheat. I remember endless games how some people would build these scud storms that would instantly reload. I think after like the 5th game in a row when that happend I quit and never played it again.

But again… its not that I am pining for another Zero hour. The comparison is simply that zero hour got an idea right, and AoE III which did the same thing (almost) did it badly.

Its no differant then saying in TA you can… but in another RTS you can’t… It doesn’t mean you want to play TA again. It simply means that some mechanic TA did very well and some other game would greatly benifit from that wisdom.

Ok I might be wrong about this but here is the analogy in gameplay I see:

In Zero hour you had a base faction and then some customizations on that faction to give you a specal flavor of that faction. For example, GLA with toxins, stealth, or explosives. They were all basic GLA, but played very very differant then each other.

Now how I see it in AoE III (and yes I might be wrong) is that the home city is an equivilent to those custom faction. IE: We both play Ottos, but your power set is differant then mine, in a way like toxin generals are differant then demolitions generals, both of the GLA faction.

What AoE III did that is exiciting in this reguard is let you make your own general. Think of Zero hour where you had a pool of general powers, maybe 30, and you could pick 10. This would be great, right? Its a definite improvement in gameplay.

However now take that idea and mix in a lot of water. Lots and lots of water. Now go back to zero hour and say that a GLA upgrade is that he can build techicals (a kind of light vehicle) 10% faster. Another power allows technicals to do 10% more damage. Kind of weak. Now in Zero hour there is an upgrade to techincals, it is a level 1 improvement (the weakest power you can get). It makes them vetran units. This basically doubles thier rate of fire. So to go back in AoE III terms, it would have to be an age 1 upgrade that doubles the damage of Jans vs everything.

Then there are just powers, not unit upgrades. A power in zero hour for the GLA stealth general was to make units invisible (presumably through camo). Now such a power would actually be very reasonable in AoE III. In RoN you had indians who were sneaky and invisible (until they attacked). You also had a general (in RoN) that could stealth all your units for a sneak attack. Now in a game where you are in unfamillair terrain and have native tribes, it would not be unreasonable for your flavor of whatever civ learning to be somewhat sneaky and gaining this power. It would be great for villages gathering. Maybe it would simply be that if an enemy came in range, they would stop gathering and simply hide.

Ok anyway… my point is that the custom upgrades in a basic form is a great Idea, one Id really like to see added to the standard RTS handbook. One where it is no longer ok to just have 3 or 4 factions, but then many flavors of each faction. However, if you do that, do not do it in a watered down manner. Giving a faction 20% improved infantry (which in AoE III might be 3 or 4 cards) isn’t all that. Yea it helps, but not by much.

I haven’t given up on AoE III yet, I am glad I got an online DvD case version for 35 bucks, I wont feel as bad about not getting my money’s worth from it if I stop playing it soon. However, after each game, I leave in disgust (there are some wild imbalance issues) and maybe the next day Ill play another game and have the same thing happen. Its shame though, it is a very pretty game.

24

Like i said, AoE just isn’t your style of game.

The problem with +50% and +100% upgrades is that it eliminates choice; there is no reason you wouldn’t choose them.

Moreover the concept of building a deck is what the Age 3 home city is more about - not having a super card you use in every game. There are situations when the +10% and +20% cards are a better choice then receiving free units; but not necessarily every game.

Now there are some less useful cards and i wouldn’t argue that the unit upgrade cards are rather lacking in punch (i’d like to see at least 25% upgrades for the level 25 cards). But that’s the system as Ensemble conceived it.

And what “wild imbalance” issues are there?

25

DeepT, I’m Natus on ESO, and I agree with Gene that this may not be your type of game. It is micro-heavy, the upgrades are slight, and even RTS Zen master Tom Chick was pretty turned off by it.

However, I have a hard time taking seriously the lament that it’s not more like Zero Hour (which you know I love.) The HC cards in AoE3 aren’t perfectly balanced, but a lot work just fine and are worth the inclusion. And if you are looking for two Ottoman armies to be quite distinct, that won’t happen. Again, it’s not Zero Hour. But it seems that you’re just looking for individuality for individuality’s sake. The difference lies more in the strategies than in the “look.” Some Russian players go heavy Cossacks. Some rush with Strelets, or pump out Musketeers. Visually, they’re very much the same; tactically, not so much.

If you want to see cloaked units, I’d wait till the x-pac. I’m sure the Indian tribes will be using some manner of cloaking. And you really think Forts are weak? You must be the first person to think that!

I also don’t understand what “wild imbalances” you are talking about. Yes, using quick search, I’ve been hammered by Spanish pike rushes and Dutch FFs, and even by a Port or two, but I’m playing Russia so I take that into account. I think the balance is actually pretty good, though whether it stays that way is another question. You even admitted to me that the Chinese generals were OP in Zero Hour.

You may simply prefer the ZH style of battle and I sympathize. There’s no one AoE3 upgrade or card that’s going to provide the silver bullet you need at the moment. But that’s why I like it. I’ve fought my way out of certain defeat to win, and I’ve had the same done to me. And I’ll never be very good at it, because I don’t have the time to practise as much as I should. But that’s OK; I enjoy the struggle, same as I enjoy the unpolished and difficult Red Orchestra over BF2.

26

DeepT, firstly, with all due respect, there are no “wild imbalance” issues in Age III. Are there “imbalance” issues? Most certainly. There are in every RTS. But your comment is just disgruntled message board hyperbole.

However, I think your main problem with Age III is that you don’t understand it, on a broader level. Some RTSs are more or less economically driven. Age III is an RTS that sits primarily on its economics, and then on its tactical managements, neither of which is always sexy, and both of which require some pretty serious hands-on management and under-the-hood know-how. I fully understand not being taken by it. You have to appreciate that kind of game if you want to dig in and grok it.

But it’s also why the +10% here and -10% there cards aren’t useless. In the hands of a skilled or devoted player, those things make all the difference. That’s just the kind of RTS Ensemble has created. It’s older school, serious, and sometimes un-fun.

BTW, based on your comments, I hope you’ll try Battle for Middle Earth II. It is, in ways, the absolute anti-Age III RTS.

-Tom

27

Well, I played Ports some more and I think it’s time to consider giving up on them. I have a big asian fetish so I’d love me some Ronin, but man, the lack of siege is just killing me. I played two games where I might’ve won if I had the siege to push, but I didn’t so I didn’t.

So, any suggestions over what civ to play? I’m an Ork player in DoW, if that’s any reference (not really though, if DoW didn’t have that fantastic squad system I wouldn’t be playing them). I would also like to juggle a minimum of peasants around (so that’ll put French and Dutch into consideration). Maybe Ottomans. hmmm.

28

Yeah, the difference between the two is really night and day. AoE3 is about keeping the right balance between peon tasks to keep the supplies coming in. Middle Earth II is about plopping down buildings and killing stuff fast enough to keep those magic powers rolling in.

If you want 50 per cent bonuses, BfME2 is the way to go. The god powers that do this can turn a losing battle into a winning one.

I just started getting back in AoE3 this weekend and I forgot how terrible the AI was. I started on Moderate just to get my sea legs back and it wasn’t even close. A couple of half-hearted attacks and then turtling until I killed them all.

I don’t remember either of the other Age games being so woeful in SP.

Troy

29

Ottomans have peasants that build automatically, without any input from the player. A full range of resource cards - with an emphasis on gold - and military cards. They are also very flexible with the most starting wood of any other civ. It was intended that Ottomans start by building a Mosque (Church) and buying their special villager techs which increase the rate at which the free villagers appear - but it’s not necessary in all honesty, and so you get a very flexible start. Jannisaries are the most powerful Musketman unit - but the only infantry unit you can build. Spahis are super-elite Cavalry (basically a Curiassier x 1.5) but you can only ship them from the Home City. Ottomans are generally seen as a rushing civ, but they can make a good economy if you have the time and resources to invest in their Church techs.

Germans get a handful of special villagers that collect resources at 2x the rate, but generally their economy is standard. But they get some queer and different units, like the Doppnelsoldner that does AoE damage in melee. Their selling point is their huge selection of mercenaries; and the German “Fast Fortress” is one of the most feared strategies in the game. Rush to the third age and overwhelm your opponent with Mercenaries.

I like the Russians because the civ was patterned after the morose perseverance amidst mediocrity and serfdom that embodies the Russian spirit. They have a crappy economy - but their villagers cost 10% less. All their infantry cost 10% less as well. They get the Strelet, which is simulaneously the best and worst unit in the game - the weakest per man, but most cost effective. As well as a host of other uniquely Russian features.

The other civs tend to be more conventional, imo.

30

I think alot of the problems in Aoe3 come from horrific mirco management problems. Which strangely I don’t remember to be so bad in AOM.

My favorite example is the abus gun pre patch and skrimsher exploit. Pre patch abus guns were untouchable by infantry due to their long range meaning if manage you couldn’t lose any fight until the enemy got cavalry or their own artellery. Same goes for skirmshers, I lost 15 jannis to 5 skirmshers because my guys didn’t understand the concept of moving into range then firing. So the battle went like this: move just onto firing range, skrim moves back and fires, repeat til dead.

Alot of my frustration comes from micromanaging and the lack of thinking by the AI. If I’m knee deep in my enemy base fighting to destroy his buildings, I can’t be looking at the upper left hand corner of the screen to make sure my guys are still gathering food for the age up.

I agree completely about defenses needing to be made better. It is too easy to lose a bunch of villagers next to an outpost tower to cavlary, A. because the tower does little damage to them, and B because they’re too stupid to go into the fricken tower 2 ft away from them.

Even with the complaints I enjoy Aoe3, somewhat but it is a bit too frustrating to play if I want to have a good online match with someone.

31

SuperHiro, don’t entirely give up on the Ports. I’d say if you are in a position to need siege with them, then you’re doing well. I think Ports get Grenadiers, so don’t stint with them. I’ve been using them a bit as Russia, and I’m growing to like them more and more. They’re hard to pick out in a crowd, and when they start bombing, your opponent will be in for a shock. But that’s just for Fortress. Come Industrial, you know what to do.

I’m an Ork player too. Try Russians for the multi-squad feel, or Ottomans. I’m liking them more and more.

32

I did not say that 10% cards were useless. Also when you ask, why wouldn’t anyone always use a super card like that… The point is that EVERY card is like that and since you can have only 20 cards, you may not always want to pick it.

Also cards might have a value of more then 1 deck slot to balance them. Maybe 100% more damage from infantry is 2 card slots.

On wild unit imbalances: Ill concede that it can be because I do not yet understand the game… but Ill give you an example.

I am playing the ottos, and I figured out how to counter calvary pretty well. Jans in melee mode are really good. So then I play a game with this russian player. For some reason I decied to be extra careful and had like 6 layers of walls around my city. Normally I have two at most.

So then the huge army of calvary shows up and starts beating on my walls. Before my jans even manage to get to the calvary they go through 3 layers. So my jans meet up with him and start the beat downs. They ignore my jans and go through more walls. Within about 20 seconds he is through my last 3 layers. Then he starts raping my villages and blowing up budilings, really really fast. My jans are much slower then his calvary and can never catch up. If they get close his calvary just runs to another side of my base. I am pretty much hosed. My temple had a wall around it, and from the time this horde of calvary got to it, to its death was about 10 seconds.

I look at this unit and each horse has 60 SEIGE damage. That is more then most cannons have. WTF? Then it does double damage Vs EVERYTHING but calvary and infantry. Well infantry is moot since they just run away.

Sure if I had a crystal ball and built nothing but calv archers, maybe I could have countered it. However, I doubt that still. He would just ignore them and rape my buildings and send in wave after wave because he can destroy buildings and units so fast.

To me that, is a wildly unbalanced unit. It moves very fast and does huge damage. If it was a slow ass unit like a cannon, then that would be ok. But fast speed + extreem damage = major imbalance in my book.

Ill try and play AoE III some more. Ill play russins this time and use that unit in mass. The best way to see if its unblanced is to see how other civs counter it, if they can counter it.

I do plan on getting BFME2 sometime, but right now its Galatic Civs 2’s turn at bat.

33

Heh, if I had Grenadiers, I wouldn’t be complaining. All I got in fortress artillery wise are Organ Guns. Absolutely terrific against infantry (except when I play Orpheo, because he knows they’re coming), horrific against buildings. Industrial I get mortars, but by then my moment to push has passed. So really, all I got is a bunch of pikemen/halberdiers to do my buildin killin. It esspecially sucks when my opponent makes it to fortress and I have to deal with a fort. That’s pretty much how I lose, cracking my head open banging it against the fort.

As for the French Super-Cav. I do believe their disadvantage is that they’re really expensive. So if they can field an army of them of that size… were you leaving their econ completely unmolested? In a typical game, I can usually make 4, 8 at the most… depending on HC Shipments (but I suck). DeepT, did you just say you had THREE layers of Walls?

34

It was 6 layers of walls, and it wasn’t the French. It was the russian raiding calvary who apparntly have huge mallets that can beat down a wall or any other structure, even my fort was obliterated in seconds.

I have experienced the uber French calvary. Upgraded Jans in sword mode do good against them. The thing is the calvary isnt particuarly good at killing buldings or villages, so they are not going be running all over the place killing your base. Sure they will tear walls and stuff up, but not at the lighting speeds these runssian demolition team calvary can.

35

I gotta say, I have never seen any units other than siege tear down forts or even towers in seconds like you’re saying. I’m far from a top tier player (very far…) but it’s been my experience that defensive structures, especially once they have a cannon attack, do SERIOUS damage to any attackers. Throw a few defensive units at them too and they’re not going to get anywhere without siege.

How much Russian cavalry are we talking about? Like a hundred?

36

And did you upgrade your walls? I know the wood walls don’t do so hot.

37

Those are Oprichnicks. Like Huns in AoK. That’s all they’re supposed to do: kill buildings, cannon and villies. That’s it. So yeah, they should have levelled things in 10 secs flat…assuming you didn’t cover with anfantry.

Can’t help you any further, DeepT. In AoE3, I never build walls!

38

I think Walls are underused in AoEIII. They’re relatively cheap and in a tight spot I would imagine they can make a difference (as long as you upgrade them). Six layers sound a little excessive though.
Get the right cards and they’ll be even stronger.

Natus, I think DeepT DID cover them with infantry, but since they were cavalry they just outran the jannisaries. And from what I understand, Cavalry archers aren’t so great.

39

Yes I used infantry and these guys ran away. Yes the walls were upgraded. 30 of those russian raiders will tear a hole in a wall very fast. That is 60 siege damage each, x30 (maybe it was even more) that is 1800 sige damage for each round of attacks.

Yes 6 walls was exessive. I just built a triple wall at first and my ally made a double wall after that (across the entire map) and then when i saw him tear through my outer 3 walls, i made another one right around my base.

Sure my fort might of killed one or two, but then they kill the fort. I kind of think forts arn’t even worth getting now. They never really hold the line, they are just fat targets.

Ok I just looked them up: I was wrong about the sige damage. Its 75 (base), not 60.

Veteran Oprichnik: 90 Food & 60 Coin
° Role

  • Riading Cavalry
    ° Stats
    · Age Available: Fortress
    · Hitpoints: 250
    · Pop. Use: 2
    · Pop. Limit: Unlimited
    · Resists: -20% Ranged Damage
    · Speed: 6.75
    ° Attacks
  • Range: 24 Damage, Range 12, 3x Dmg vs. Cavalry, .5x Dmg vs. Settlers
  • Guardian: 20 Hand Damage, 3x Dmg vs. Settlers
  • Hand: 20 Hand Damage, 20 Hand Damage, 3x Dmg vs. Settlers
  • Trample: 13 Hand Damage, Area 3, 3x Dmg vs. Settlers
  • Siege: 75 Siege Damage, Range 6

Now this is the ‘basic’ guy, not the royal eleite veteran unit of godly uberness that raped me.

Ok look at that dude. He is CHEAP. Here is the Ottoman raiding calvary:
Hussar: 120 Food & 80 Coin
° Role

  • Raiding & Scouting
    ° Stats
    · Age Available: Colonial
    · Hitpoints: 290
    · Pop. Use: 2
    · Pop. Limit: Unlimited
    · Resists: -10% Ranged Damage
    · Speed: Melee 6.75, Trample 3.38
    ° Attacks
  • Guardian: 30 Hand Damage
  • Hand: 30 Hand Damage
  • Trample: 20 Hand Damage, Area 3
  • Siege: 20 Siege Damage, Range 6
    · Modes: Melee, Trample, & Defend

30 more food, 20 more coin, and is complete gimp compared to the russian raiding calvary.

Look at this cannon: Falconet: 100 Wood & 400 Coin
It does 100 siege damage. It is slow as hell, speed 1.6 vs 6.75 of the russian raiders. You get 25 more siege damage at a cost of 10 more (food/wood) and 340 more gold. WoW! Ill buy that for a dollar! NOT!

Sure the bombards do 500 siege damage, but they can’t escape danger easily, unlike these transwarp demolition experts on horseback can. Why not simple give them the ability to fold space at will? It would only make them slightly more powerful.

40

Man, I’m at a loss. I have no idea how to counter a force that large, aside from having a big-ass army of my own.

Actually, I have a stupid question. I hear a lot about making Musketmen set bayonets and Janissaries draw swords. But I see no buttons that would let me do this. Is there one, or do Musketeers set bayonets automatically (doesn’t look like it from the animations)? And all these different stances and stuff… how do I access it, or is it all generally automatic?