No, it’s not. Words have definitions, you know.
Yep, they do. Type, “Define Bigotry” into google, and the definition which comes up is:
“Bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”
Yes, laughing at silly outfits is “hatred and intolerance”, apparently.
Yes, exactly. It’s no different than making fun of someone in a yamika or dashiki. The fact that the symbolism is lost on you doesn’t mean it is fair game for ridicule.
If all bigotry is wrong, what do you do with bigots? What’s it look like to tolerate intolerance?
Ya, making fun of someone’s religion is in fact religious intolerance.
It may not be the overt type of intolerance that manifests in physical violence. It’s just the low-key, insidious intolerance that permeates so many people. Because, hey, it’s just a joke, right?
I’m kind of hyper aware because I was the same way previously, specifically regarding mormonism. But it occurred to me that I wouldn’t make the same kind of jokes about jews or muslims, despite their religions involving clothing that wasn’t stuff I wore myself. Making fun of their religious attire would be something some idiot redneck bigot would do.
Now, apparently folks here don’t actually find it offensive to make fun of islamic or jewish religious attire either, but I do.
Timex, i better not see you making fun of Scientology next time it is brought up with your comments in this thread.
And i don’t mean this as a slight against Mormons. “My religion makes perfect sense but yours is silly and/or a cult” is an extremely common viewpoint and these boards are no stranger to it. Many religions practically demand this attitude.
Ya, I’ve considered my views regarding scientology from this perspective as well.
Scientology is in a slightly different category, in that I think that it is almost solely designed to exploit people and con them out of their money. I’m not certain that it necessarily qualifies as an actual religion, especially given its history of Hubbard actually having a bet with a friend about starting their own scam religion.
But at the same time, while I find Scientology to be a scam, I wouldn’t necessarily make fun of the practitioners who were merely sheep looking for answers. I would probably try to talk them out of it, but I wouldn’t just mock them for it.
Like I said, regarding mormons, I had the same kind of views that folks are expressing here… but after considering them more, I found that those views were bigoted. It became clear when I made the transfer of similar views of other religions.
If a muslim woman was walking down the street, and some redneck started mocking her for her head scarf, I don’t think anyone here would join in. I think we’d all condemn his actions as the intolerant nonsense that they are.
Viewing them now they are remarkably boring.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but Dashikis are basically just regional/cultural clothing, without much in the way of symbolic significance, and are not a proxy for specific beliefs; making fun of it, other than some bizarre asthetic fashion theoretical grounds, would likely be a proxy for racism, which is why no one here would do it. Kippahs are “standard” religious clothing, in that they have no symbolic freight other than believing in the Jewish religious canon, which is your standard level of religious ridiculousness, at best minor. Often for secular jews they’re still a racial identity clothing, like dashikis are, which is why no one decent mocks them, because again it’d be interpreted as a proxy for racism. On top of that you have the whole “history of severe Jewish discrimination” thing.
By contrast, people feel perfectly fine mocking the religious beliefs in your other “standard level of religiousness” outfits that aren’t minorities in the US - evangelicals and Catholics, because there’s no risk of it being interpreted as wanting to kill them all.
If a muslim woman was walking down the street, and some redneck started mocking her for her head scarf, I don’t think anyone here would join in. I think we’d all condemn his actions as the intolerant nonsense that they are.
Just so I have this straight, finding religious outfits and practices ridiculous and making jokes about them is bigoted? Like, say, the same way thinking black people are stupider than white people? Setting people’s houses on fire? Same continuum, same sort of thing?
That’s because we’d be worried some “redneck” would be about to beat her up, fire her, mock her in public, or at the very least make her feel unwelcome. Said redneck is usually also mocking on grounds of slightly dressed up racism, not making some meta commentary on the religious attitudes and practices.
Turn it around - is there any way to find X religion ridiculous without it being bigotry? What are the alternate categories - is it bigotry if I find football fandom ridiculous and make jokes about it? Specific political beliefs? Note the discussion of the word revolves around discrimination (concrete action), prejudice (making conclusions about individual members of the group based on common group characteristics), and intolerance. I think you’re putting all the weight on “intolerance” and extrapolating the popular definition you hear thrown around on the right - “you cannot hold a disapproving opinion on that subject without being intolerant” - which is not what people mean, or the definition.
Unable or indisposed to tolerate, endure or bear. Not tolerant; close-minded about new or different ideas. indisposed to tolerate contrary opinions or beliefs; impatient of dissent or opposition; denying or refusing the right of private opinion or choice in others; inclined to persecute or suppress dissent.
“It’s not polite or nice” is perfectly accurate, but bigotry?
Mormons are discriminated against, like any other young religion; certainly not as much as the early days, when they were chased out of just about every town.
And I do think that bigotry does have a much broader definition than you’re imagining, McCullough. It’s about narrow-mindedness in relation to those who differ with you – on just about anything. Mocking football fans would count, sure. The question that I was asking earlier is: when do you stop caring about bigotry? Just about everyone is only culturally relativistic to a point.
Timex justifies Scientology by disqualifying it as a religion and recategorizing it as something that is permissible to not tolerate (a scam), and of course many people have done the same with Mormonism. I think the bigotry in this thread is just how reflexive and unreasoning you sound when you Nelson Muntz at some religious garments.
On the other hand, if you don’t appreciate a religion that treats homosexuality as a disease to be controlled or overcome, or one with a shitty history of race relations, or an anti-science slant, you shouldn’t shrug and say “hey, that’s their beliefs.” And on the flip side, we shouldn’t classify that kind of grounded criticism as just more bigotry.
Just so I have this straight, finding religious outfits and practices ridiculous and making jokes about them is bigoted? Like, say, the same way thinking black people are stupider than white people? Setting people’s houses on fire? Same continuum, same sort of thing?
You aren’t making a very strong argument here, if it’s boiling down to “Well, we’re not actually MURDERING them, so it’s cool.”
That’s because we’d be worried some “redneck” would be about to beat her up, fire her, mock her in public, or at the very least make her feel unwelcome.
Err… yeah.
So, you are talking about actually mocking mormons in public, and making them feel unwelcome… but don’t see anything wrong with it.
Turn it around - is there any way to find X religion ridiculous without it being bigotry?
Yes, you can disagree with its beliefs.
But as soon as you begin to openly mock their beliefs, then you are a bigot.
I’m honestly pretty baffled, given that you yourself made the statement quoted above. I mean… it’s like you somehow aren’t aware that you are mocking mormons in public, and making them feel unwelcome.
Are you actually blind to what you’re doing? You don’t see that?
Timex justifies Scientology by disqualifying it as a religion and recategorizing it as something that is permissible to not tolerate (a scam)
To be clear, I don’t really justify it. I find scientology distasteful (honestly, as I do many religions), but I still would refrain from actually mocking a scientologist and trying to shame them or make them feel uncomfortable about their religion.
Newer kind of makes it weirder in my book. Its hard to say what happened in the year ZERO, but knowing what happened in the late 1800s and was well documented is pretty easy. Same goes for Scientology, which is even worse.
If you tell me you believe some guy was resurrected a couple millennia ago, I’ll be hard pressed to prove otherwise to you. If you tell me you believe that Reagan was never President and it was actually a giant cat/dog hybrid that was elected President in 1980, that is a lot easier to prove and if you don’t listen to me, I’m going to think you’re crazy.
If you think it’s okay to mock someone’s deeply held beliefs because you don’t share them then you may not be a bigot - I don’t want to get into an argument about definitions - but you certainly are an asshole.
Er, Scientology bears a remarkable resemblance to some forms of OrgCrime, you realise?
And actually, Mormonism is on shaky grounds in respect of standard cult definitions, because of their practice of shunning ex-members. But that’s nothing to do with clothing.
I like this reasoning. It means that the least weird widely practiced religion is Hinduism, and that Hinduism is weird compared to the animistic religions that human beings practiced for tens of thousands of years before the appearance of anything remotely resembling organized religion.
I’m kidding of course, but I do like the idea of a time-traveling Paleolithic shaman having a WTF response to the Greek pantheon or Christianity or whatever.
Watched two of those videos and they are less weird than a bunch of christians gathering on a sunday morning to eat the flesh and drink the blood of their zombie god.
I’ve never really known a Mormon to be shunned for leaving the church, at least not more than the other local Christian churches. Jehovah’s witnesses however, that’s some hardcore shunning.
No, re-read what I said.
Based on what is mocking football fans “bigotry”? Twilight fans?
On the other hand, if you don’t appreciate a religion that treats homosexuality as a disease to be controlled or overcome, or one with a shitty history of race relations, or an anti-science slant, you shouldn’t shrug and say “hey, that’s their beliefs.” And on the flip side, we shouldn’t classify that kind of grounded criticism as just more bigotry.
So as long as I “ground” my jokes about football, it’s not bigotry? I don’t understand how you guys are classifying this at all.
I re-read what you said, Jason, and it still seems like you are defending bigotry. It seems like your argument consists of “It’s ok to make fun of groups I don’t like, because I don’t like them and they are different from me.”
It’s like… “Bigotry is ok, because bigotry.”
But I’m guessing that we’re just misunderstanding each other, so maybe you could highlight what makes you think that making fun of someone’s religious attire separates it from bigotry.