How about if I make fun of groups that I think are stupid because of a non- innate quality?
On my end, yeah, that’s about it. No such thing as logical, rational bigotry, like there’s no logical, rational prejudice.
I can kind of see that. Wouldn’t that imply mocking Mormon clothing for its role in their religous beliefs isn’t bigotry, though? I still find it outlandish that “bigot” can be applied to the sports people like.
My only claim is that it’s not “bigotry”; that’s a pretty loaded word, just like “racist” is. I think it’s important to use it correctly.
But I’m guessing that we’re just misunderstanding each other, so maybe you could highlight what makes you think that making fun of someone’s religious attire separates it from bigotry.
To elaborate on what I said previously, I don’t think mocking religious attire related to criticism of beliefs is bigotry unless there’s some sort of cultural or racial identity angle to it. Whether it’s a good idea or makes you an asshole is a separate question.
To elaborate on what I said previously, I don’t think mocking religious attire related to criticism of beliefs is bigotry unless there’s some sort of cultural or racial identity angle to it. Whether it’s a good idea or makes you an asshole is a separate question.
Mocking someone’s religion intrinsically involves a cultural angle.
So if I make up a religion - just me, mind you - where I think I’m the literal reincarnation of Jesus it’s bigotry to mock that? Note you’ve slipped into “religion” now instead of “religous clothing” as the subject.
Do you think that perhaps your position is demonstrating its weakness by the fact that you are forced to fall back onto imaginary scenarios where you make up your own religion all by yourself?
No, I’m just trying to determine what rules of thumb and breakpoints you’re using here by asking interesting hypotheticals. In that case, what you really mean by culture. It’s the same reason I asked if you could be bigoted against football fans; I think the vast bulk of the public would say no. Also it certainly seems as if you’re leaving no limiting case at all (can you express any opinion at all? Are you allowed to say someone is wrong?) to disagree with anyone without being a “bigot”, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.
That doesn’t happen.
It happens. In my experience it isn’t with a majority of people though, the people that do the shunning are usually the ones that you didn’t want to associate with anyway. My brother recently left, and other than my parents feeling pretty awful for a while, nobody in my family went nuts.
The problem is one of the beliefs is that everyone that is righteous ends up in heaven all together as one big happy family. So if someone leaves, the really hardcore feel like that person won’t be with them, which is pretty traumatic in an eternal sort of way. So mostly what I’ve seen isn’t shunning, more like not knowing how to react to that big change.
But you seem like you’re just trying to invent little loopholes to prevent your bigoted actions being called bigoted… but I think that you know they are.
If I made fun of an islamic woman because of her head-dress, I would be a bigot. It doesn’t require some in depth analysis of the underlying motivations of my mocking her. The act of mocking her religious attire is, itself, bigoted.
And I suspect that in that case, it’s blatently obvious to you… because you’ve already acclimated yourself to the notion that bad, bigoted people do that, and you don’t.
But in the case of making fun of mormons, you just lack that preconception. You are being that bad, bigoted person, perhaps without realizing it.
Like I said, I was the same way. I made fun of the fact that they wore “magic underwear” to church. But then I realized that there was, literally, nothing different between mocking their religious attire and mocking the attire worn by muslims or jews.
As far as your question of “Does disagreeing with someone make me a bigot?” no, of course not. Merely disagreeing with the beliefs of someone else does not make you a bigot.
But harassing and mocking them DOES make you a bigot.
Hmm, apparently they’ve replaced the live acting with a movie. Or is that gone, too?
Jason, I wasn’t going to jump in this one, but I am guessing if some Republican congressman made fun of the Islamic practice of the shahadah you’d be quick to call him a bigot, no? Or if someone from Alabama ridiculed Jews who were wearing the traditional headwear, you’d call them bigots?
The traditional dictionary definition of bigotry includes religion along with race, culture, etc.
BTW - not throwing stones here. By this definition I am easily a bigot in some areas.
I must be a bigot too, I mock and deride fanatical NASCAR fans.
Jeff, I agree with the definition including religion, but there’s other words in there that matter. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that both of those cases you mention are entertwined with culture, race, and discrimination, and I think that’s what makes the difference. As mentioned below, if it’s just “religion,” do you honestly think joking about a crazy-person religion of one person who think’s they are a bigotry? If not, what’s the breakpoint for religious headcount? What does that tell you about the guidelines?
Just because it’s a seemingly unlikely and crazy hypothetical doesn’t make it useless; real laws and court cases are made on these subjects.
I’m trying to rough out an answer on why the completely uncontroversial statement that “the Scientologist religion is crazy, we should mock them for it” isn’t bigotry - you are in a very, very small minority on thikning it is - but mocking Jews for their headwear is, and where the Mormon religion and practices land. Something about culture, race, discrimination, and self-selection seems reasonable. I actually do think making fun of Southerners for cultural affections like NASCAR and Texans for their …very large…love of football is bigotry, but that’s if you’re just directly framing it as a related factor. “Dumb ass crackers love to watch cars go around in circles” is, “I think football is ridiculous” isn’t.
I am not arguing making fun of religions and religious clothing is ok in all cases, or that I think it’s ok in any cases for that matter. I’m drawing a line between what’s “bigotry” and what’s “may be an asshole.” Disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I think the opposite of what you do.
I’m not entirely sure I agree with “Mormonism is a culture in way smaller religions aren’t, so mocking their clothing is bigotry”, but it’s a reasonable guideline. I definitely don’t agree that “making fun of Mormon’s belief that they will be space gods” is bigotry just because it’s their religion.
I’m trying to rough out an answer on why the completely uncontroversial statement that “the Scientologist religion is crazy, we should mock them for it” isn’t bigotry
I think I already covered this a few times now. Mocking a scientologist for his beliefs is in fact bigotry.
Now, their religion is, in my opinion, a scam… mainly because they’re just charging people for the right to be in their religion… Also, because, for the most part, it doesn’t seem like it actually helps make the lives of the practitioners better… But that’s my opinion. I feel the same way about lots of religions.
But that doesn’t make it ok to taunt and harass those people. Just because I find scientology weird doesn’t mean it’s ok for me to harass its practitioners.
Also, while this is perhaps more of a gut instinct than a fully thought out position, arguments against scientology itself are based in a criticism of the church and its actions.
The videos posted up by the guy about mormons aren’t really presenting any such criticism. They’re just “Hur hur! Look at how funny their clothes are!”
It just reeks of the same kind of bigotry you see demonstrated by backwards rednecks when they encounter basically anyone who is different than they are.
For the record, there are a lot of NASCAR fanatics who are neither rednecks nor Southerners.
I’m an equal opportunity mocker, and I will mock the belief in magic underwear right alongside belief in creationism, ritual cannibalism, and any other ridiculousness I happen across, as and when I deem appropriate, and if someone doesn’t like that, then he’s just a bigot and can go jump in a lake.
Mormons cut ties with people who are excommunicated, but that’s really rare and requires some hard core transgression the only one I can think of that I know personally was a child molester). If you just leave they’ll usually keep in contact because they always look at you as someone who can be “reactivated”. You can also ask not to be contacted any longer, but that’s the person cutting ties with the church, not the other way around. My best friend growing up was in a family that left the church over some serious disagreements with official doctrine. That didn’t stop me or my very active from family interacting with them socially on a daily basis.
Doesn’t look particularly more or less silly than most religions appear to those outside.
Yes, because believing the son of God (An all power, all knowing, mystical being with super powers that watches over us without interfering for some reason) lived on earth and was brought back to life with super powers is completely a more easy to believe idea than believing that aliens with advanced technology used mind control beams to fool humanity in to believing a lie. Hell, the government could have used advanced computer techniques to create a fake persona using actors and hidden technology supplies by the Secret Police.
The whole point of religion is that natural laws don’t apply so you can’t disprove it. This is why people still believe stuff like the earth is only 6000 years old, because if you accept that said Being can do Anything, it is possible that Anything can be faked. Bringing someone back to life seems a lot harder than creating a bunch of fake bones.
Of course you can. The correct tool is philosophy!