Mosul is falling to Iraqi insurgents

The point I’m making is to blame people for their extremism, not the ideology they claim. It’s actually largely irrelevant which excuse they use for it, except as it allows them to extend control of others.

Communism, for example…exerted itself largely by winning conventional wars, and hence dominated states fairly easily. Despite the fact it’s terrible at actually running states (or indeed any groups of people over about 300 in size)

True enough. I do wonder, though, whether in our attempts to separate the general from the specific, do we lose some detail? That is, are there certain belief structures–religions, ideologies, call 'em what you will–that are in and of themselves more predisposed to extremism or other negative outcomes? Certainly most people hold up, say, fascism and point out it’s inherent problems. Capitalism, communism, and the like all get similar treatments sometimes, but when you start doing that for religions, things get nasty. Should we be giving religions a pass on such generalizations? Are they inherently different from secular ideologies? I don’t have an answer, but I think it’s an interesting question.

Certainly. When the entire group is in itself a problem it’s a generally called a cult. Like Scientology. (Which, I remind you, explicitly denies it’s a religion in some countries)
There are certain markers of cult status, such as disassociating members from their family and former community, aggressive proselytizing, use of indoctrination techniques, etc.

On the other hand, plenty of peaceful Muslims despite the existence of Islamism, which is a problem not because it’s religious, but because it has explicitly political goals. So I argue that blaming Islam for Islamism is wrong - some people will, unfortunately, gravitate to extremist ideologies. It’s interesting to look at the work of Quillam, an Islamic anti-Islamist think tank.

(I am absolutely not saying anything about your views on Islam, I note!)

Most people, in practice, don’t follow “pure” capitalism and tend to look down on the very small minority of (rich) people who do. Extreme capitalists can be just as nasty as any other form of extremist, though, you certainly don’t need physical violence…

Come on man. In the world we live in, there is literally (!) no comparison between radical islam and radical every other faith put together. Literally. No comparison. So while you personally might be terrified of buddhist extremists, there is no basis in fact for that fear. It’s an irrational fear. Radical Islam on the other hand might cut your fucking head off and sell your daughter into slavery, depending on where you live.

So, yeah. Not the same. At all.

And the point I am making is why doesn’t the world take this problem on instead of pretending it does not exist? Extremism may be the problem but its an easily categorized specific type of religious extremist that is the issue at hand. Extreme vegans are not a problem for the world. Extreme christians are not a problem for the world. Radical islam is an actual problem. Right fucking now, for the entire world. The shit going on in Syria and Iraq is straight out of the Nazi playbook. But people are afraid to say this and confront it, you guys on this forum can’t even do it. Why?

Where I live (the US), I am in permanent fear of Christian extremists. Their anti-education, anti-science, anti-climate change, anti-everything Enlightenment and thereafter stance is an immediate threat to both me and the survival of the entire human species. Islam doesn’t make a blip on my paranoia radar in comparison to the worldwide damage Christian extremists may do by legislating their beliefs.

And before you say “but they’re peaceful!”, consider the 8 murders, 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 3 kidnappings, 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, and 1264 incidents of vandalism committed against US abortion clinics and providers alone over the last few decades. Add in anti-gay violence, militias, and other forms of domestic terrorism as desired.

But people are afraid to say this and confront it, you guys on this forum can’t even do it.

I can. I have zero problem with equating many of the ISIS aims and actions to those of Nazis. It’s a totally apt comparison–the details of their motivations and aims may differ, but the overall approach has major similarities.

Uhm. Animal Rights Front / Militia

And Christians? Oh don’t make me laugh. Anti-balaka in the CAR, NTLF in India, the two sides in the Troubles in Northern Ireland (there are still terrorist incidents, well down from the peak but still), LRA in Uganda, Christian Militias in America… (oh, yes, let’s not forget “pro-life” violence either!)
It’s also arguable that Breivik is an example.

You’re pretending it’s somehow specific to Islam. The excuse used by extremists is really just that, and it’s far too easy to lash out at Muslims in general, or to enable such. ISIL is a problem. Assad is a problem. But the Kurds, who are also Muslims? Etc.

And I’m the one here who’s pointed out Quillam (again, a Muslim, anti-Islamist think tank), for instance!

Islamic extremism is only so focused on because it makes the western news. Terrorist attacks are flashy, designed to get attention through shock. That is the preferred weapon, at least the public appearance of it, of Islamist extremism. But as Dave pointed out, and Starlight continued, Christian extremism is arguably more destructive. How many common citizens of the Muslim world have died as a direct result of the actions of Christianist extremism in the US? How many US citizens of Muslim decent (or even those that merely look like it) have been harassed, attacked, threatened, ‘randomly’ searched, arrested, extraordinarily renditioned, or all manner of other violations of their rights and dignity because of Christian extremism whipping up fear and hatred of their very existence.

As a Christian this appalls me.

Not to mention the attempts to legislate and codify the supremacy of (certain narrow) Christian doctrines? Kansas, Alabama, Mississippi, etc. have attempted to directly contravene one of the foundational principles of the constitution, one the founders felt very strongly about, and establish a de facto state religion by granting certain branches of evangelical Christianity special rights.

Or go back in history. Do you think the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition were ok? How about the Thirty Years War? Put bluntly to condemn Islam as having a unique propensity towards violence ignores history. Any time religion has control of the state, any time that is the defining and most important leader of policy, and especially when the ascendant faction of that religion is highly conservative about guarding (read: forcing) their views religions turn ugly.

How many common citizens of the Muslim world have died as a direct result of the actions of Christianist extremism in the US?

Is this number supposed to be large?

Or go back in history. Do you think the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition were ok? How about the Thirty Years War? Put bluntly to condemn Islam as having a unique propensity towards violence ignores history.

I think that this kind of comparison kind of sheds a light on where Islam is at, when you’re forced to compare historical incidents from over 400 years ago to uncover the kind of barbarism we’re talking about occurring today.

Groups like the NLTF are much better examples, as they are current… Although even in that case, I’d suggest that it’s perhaps more about nationalism than it is about purely religious motivations.

I think that’s a purposefully blinkered view of the issues facing the planet.

Islamic Extremism makes the “Western news” because it has a direct effect on Western audiences in a way that Buddhist Extremism, Animist Extremism, or Shinto Extremism generally do not (though those make the news sometimes too). Islamic Extremism is toppling governments, fighting to roll back democracies, and slaughtering heretics on a frighteningly large scale today. This week. Now.

How many over all time? A big number depending on what you call “direct”.

How many in the last century? A disturbingly large number.

How many in the last year? A small number that is still too large.

But here is the deal: if you take the number of unfortunate Muslims civilians that have died or been harassed at the hands of US Christians in the last five years, I would wager it is not even a fraction of the number of non-Muslims that have died or been harassed within Iraq in the last three months. In order to get that number anywhere near parity, you’d have to stretch the time-frame out back to 2003 or so and count all the Iraq casualties as victims of US Christians no matter who pulled the trigger.

I actually agree with Craig and Dave that Christian Extremism in the US is a more direct threat to the livelihood of US citizens in the medium term than Islamic Extremism because yes, it could retard our health and prosperity over the next generation or so if we are dumb enough to let it. But I don’t think we’re that dumb, and we haven’t shown ourselves to be that silly historically.

However: worldwide, the anti-scientific and anti-personal-rights (especially women’s rights) views of Islamic Extremism will likely do much more harm over a much longer time-frame. The scientific and intellectual potential that Islamic Extremism will likely deprive the world of over the next few generations is staggering.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has said that Christians or Jews or atheists or Zoroastrians are less inclined historically to being asshats. If today you could find the biggest extremist from each religion or sect and line them up, no one in this thread is saying that the prize-winning douche would be an Islamist.

What we’re talking about is effect on the world today, at scale. A Christian nut-bag in Kansas beating a gay kid to death is horrible and we should do whatever we can to stop that. 50,000 Yazidis being forced to change their religion or be executed on the spot is an entirely different level though.

Yeah, it is. How many Afganistani or Pakistani civilians died in our war there? Now certainly Christian extremism isn’t the sole reason we got into that war, but don’t pretend it didn’t play a part in our eagerness, and willingness to commit terrible deeds. The fires of anti-Islamic sentiment were stroked by many Christians, making it easier for us to justify indefensible acts. It was used to dehumanize them, making it so that when stories of innocents getting bombed by drones, or tortured at black sites it wasn’t as galling to our collective conscience.

Yeah those are old examples, but they are big ones. They are flashy in the same way that terrorist organizations are flashy today. Todays Christian extremists are still just as damaging, but in ways that are less visible. Again Dave and Starlight provided some good examples, I was providing some historical context to show that Christians have not been exempt from the large flash terror we associate with extreme Islam today.

Craig, thanks for reminding everyone in this thread (me included) that US Christians aren’t a monolithic block. The vocal and visible extremists get most of the press and have undeniable influence, but thoughtful moderates like yourself are out there too, hopefully in larger numbers than anyone realizes.

I think Iraq should be axed into pieces, they can’t stand each other, this is never going to work… However lots of nations don’t want the Kurds to get their own piece of land, particularly that piece of shit country called Turkey.

Here’s where I disagree. While you are correct in the proportion of direct violence, it is not the only ill effect. As for Buddhist, Animist or Shinto extremists, well I don’t know much about there extremists to say anything informed. All I know is that the long arc of history shows that extremists of any stripe tend to be dangerous when in power.

I don’t wish to engage in this kind of moral equivalency. That’s because I reject the premise that being responsible for 5,000 deaths is somehow not a problem because someone else killed 50,000. Still even if we accept that the threats of direct violence is still more endemic to Islam today than Christianity, a position I in no way accede to, that isn’t the only threat extremism can pose.

See this is where I stand that Christian extremism is equally dangerous. See while many of the threats of Christian extremism, which in the US has embedded itself with other nasty traits, are not often of a direct attack type, I’d say they have more long term potential problems. violence is immediate, and easily traceable. The anti-science denialsm of the Christian right in the US has a huge impact globally. The largest global players today are not Islamic states, it’s countries like the US, China, England, Germany, Russia. What the US does tends to cause ripples, we have a nasty habit of exporting bad laws like US copyright laws. What the US does or does not do will tend to set the tone for what many other countries do. I guarantee if the US started to take global warming seriously other countries WOULD follow suit. Not to mention that Christian extremism in the US is directly providing support for many of the harsh anti-gay laws in African countries. Laws which you can show a direct link to harm. So the Christians lack the high ground when it comes to oppressive laws too. So in the long run there exists the potential (I stress potential) for Christian extremism to do far more damage.

Still set aside all that. Even if you are certain that Islamic extremism is somehow more of a threat than any other type, it still does not alter the fact that Christian extremism is bad. It would be hypocritical and wrong ot strongly condemn the extremism of others, without confronting the extremism in my own back yard, so to speak. I am a US citizen, and a Christian. My ability to influence events in Islamic spheres is virtually nil, but my ability to alter the course of Christian extremism is considerably more. So there it makes more sense for me to focus.

Besides there is this verse, one that many Christians seem to ignore, one which more Christians should practice. Matthew 7:3 ‘Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?’ In other words before I go dealing with the issues in others religions, I should deal with the problems within my own.

Burma actually. They’ve orchestrated anti-muslim violence.

The world is a strange place.

Actually, the Turks are increasingly buddy-buddy with Kurdistan right now. Not that they are going to sit right next to each other in a Turkish bath and praise each others’ lemon pastries or anything, but Erdogan’s government probably would not actively oppose a Kurdish state (even if they didn’t publicly support it). In fact, an official Kurdistan would be an economic boon to Turkey since they would be the only gateway for Kurdish oil to get to the world market.

The primary opponent to Kurdish Independence is probably Iran, perhaps tied with the Shia Iraqis.

Turkey’s certainly turning a blind eye to PKK fighters in Iraq, where they’re one of three things (the others being airstrikes and CIA-supplied ammunition) which has turned the IS back sharply.

(They’re avoiding direct intervention though, which is also not surprising)

I’m not sure Turkey would support a Kurdistan, though - the current situation actually suits them just fine, since the Iraqi Kurds can sell them oil without formally having their own country.

Perhaps they think that a Iraqi Kurdistan would make their own troublemakers leave, but that kind of thinking is not what I expect from them.

It’s more likely that they feel Kurdistan would be, by far, the most stable country in that region, since the Kurds actually have their shit together and are capable of governing in a reasonable fashion.

Historically, most powers in the region have hated the idea, because Kurdistan would take a cut out of their own territories… but it might be worth it for the stability it would bring.

I’m surprised a discussion of Christian extremism didn’t mention Uganda yet, especially since it has the America exporting extremism angle to it.

You’re talking about the anti-gay stuff, not the LRA, right?
Because the LRA can’t really be considered Christian.