Neo Nazis and the Alt Right


#4789

I’m sure their parent’s are so proud.

Really though, I’m sure their parents are so proud.


#4790

Nazis kill and advocate the killing of people. They push genocide. It’s not about what they might do, it’s what they literally did.


#4791

A reminder that deplatforming works, and we should use it more often when the ideas being peddled are “this group of people is subhuman”


#4792

Yes, and it’s scary, but that is the extreme end what I’m talking about. I don’t think Joe Rogan is having friendly conversations about genocide.


#4793

It’s not scary. It’s deadly.

Yeah. I think I saw this posted before. I’m all for it. I’ve seen no proof, no data, that says giving people who advocate genocide and that portions of the human populace as subhuman does anything but spread their vile messages. If advocates are talking to them, they’re still advocating, not faux listening… there’s a purpose.


#4794

Deadly is scary.


#4795

You’re making their violent and vile acts passive by focusing on the response of others instead of the act of the doer. The extreme ends, are killers, and those who call themselves Nazis, are advocating for death.


#4796

I’m just saying I understand what is at stake when we lean in favor of free speech. I understand there is a reason why we don’t let people go on television and talk about committing literal genocide. I’m just willing to give a wider berth of ideas (in much less extreme cases) for the sake of open conversation. I want people to engage in real life conversations with people they don’t agree with without lecturing them about why they are wrong.


#4797

You keep takitng about free speech and disagreement like there wasn’t a war that cost millions of lives. When you’re dead, there’s no speech. Nazis lead to death. There is no doubt about that. We had a war as proof.

I think I should remind you that you’re the one that brought up Nazis. They have no place in civilized society and deserve no platform. Millions died to stop them. It’s our job as the generations after those who fought that evil not to forget.


#4798

Yes I agree that violent extremists are bad, and I am not advocating giving people like that a platform.


#4799

Isn’t Joe Rogan the guy who thinks that 9/11 was a hoax or a coverup; that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition?


#4800

I, on the other hand, want every Nazi to be punched in the face.


#4801

Are there Nazis who aren’t violent extremist? Are there Nazis who believe what they believe but want to achieve this belief in a kinder, gentler way? What ways are these?


#4802

No.

Rogan was big into conspiracies like 10-15 years ago. Bigfoot, UFOs, Fake Moon Landing, he loved it all. He spent a lot of time researching them and concluded it’s all bullshit. He’s said as much on his show, a lot. As recently as last week.

I understand he’s not for everyone, but I don’t think Joe Rogan is dangerous. I think we need more people like him, people who can talk about things, engage with people they don’t agree with, and aren’t afraid to admit they’re wrong when presented with evidence.

It’s ok to be wrong about something, and people can change. We need to talk.

I also believe it’s ok to punch Nazis. Joe Rogan and I disagree on that.


#4803

Sounds a bit like the late great Art Bell…


#4804

So, I’m generally a free speech advocate and not particularly a fan of the “punch nazis in the face” approach, but there are two points here:

One. There is no evidence that accommodating extremist and anti-democratic forces helps to limit their spread or moderates their positions. On the contrary, time and again in countries all over the world during the past 100 years, anti-democratic forces have exploited democratic institutions to gain and subsequently maintain power. And the way is fairly simple. One Charismatic Individual. That is all it really takes.

Two. It is very, very easy to say “Don’t be afraid of letting scary people speak”, when it’s not your life, your children and loved ones who those people want to treat as sub-human. And I don’t mean that in a denigrative way - the actual consequences (racism, anti-semitism, homophobia, etc) are quite simply hard to understand unless you’ve experienced it yourself. I’ve seen this time and again myself with family and friends.


#4805

Julia Galef and a guest on one of her recent podcasts of Rationally Speaking talked about the problems of deplatorming, the difficulty of when it is “ok” to deplatform and when it is too extreme. Julia started with the idea that “troll” figures like Milo should obviously be deplatformed since their whole schtick is abusing the benefit of the doubt to erode society from within, by arguing in bad faith and exploiting their audiences’ confused and divided reactions, but then had difficulty distinguishing a racist who is “genuinely” racist, ie, sincerely believes in racism, and what exactly to do with that, with simply a troll like figure like Milo. Julia concluded that at least for herself she thought genuine Nazis should be deplatormed but found herself unable to clearly define the conditions why.

Everyone is going to have some line where here is still acceptable discourse and there is a bridge too far.

What scared her and her guest (an ex-Muslim Iranian who ran an ex-Muslim organization in NYC) was not that people like Jordan Peterson were wrong and had an audience, but that actually they found him (or people adjacent to him like Ben Shapiro) so uninterestingly and transparently “Not For Them” that there was developing another whole “discourse” their brothers and young men were developing outside of the “proper” channels that they neither understood nor had any engagement with.

Which is of course Peterson’s and Shapiro’s whole schtick, tbh; addressing the group that typical progressive intellectuals don’t really have anything to say about because those groups are not the focus of their interests. My guess is guys like that are fundamentally disturbing because they imply discourses and demographics that, really, progressives feel don’t need any conversation about and don’t actually have anything to say about.


#4806

Art Bell is actually where Alex Jones got his start, if I recall.


#4807

That’s where I first heard him, ranting about Bohemian Grove on Art Bell.


#4808

As an audience member at Dingus’s viewing of Silence of the Lambs might say, ‘stranger than fiction’.