AWS260
6307
It is so disheartening to see a thread about Neo-Nazis become a thread about “Turks need to assimilate better.”
If you are a citizen of a country you are a citizen of a country. How are the citizens of Germany called in Gemany’s constitution? Probably Germans (In Spain, citizens are defined as Spanish).
Citizenship is a legal definition that cannot be argued and that has legal repercussion (and why calling somebody “not German” is wrong af). Culture and belonging to one can definitely be argued, but “German” is not a culture.Germanic can be. You want to say some German-Turkish people are not Germanic, be my guest. But they are German.
Also bear in mind the Germany as a political entity (country) does not need to be “Germanic” at all. It is what its citizens are, no more and less. Associating a culture to a nation is the basic definition of “cultural nationalism”. It’s BS.
If Germany accepted people who self identified as Turks as citizens, then self-identifying as Turk is part of what Germany as a political entity is now.
RichVR
6310
I’d rather be Turks and Caicos.
Thrag
6311
If they want to assimilate or keep their Turkish identity, either way I’d say that’s nobody’s business but the Turks.
Where do you see that thread? All I see is a thread about how a small subset of Turks cannot assimilate because Turkey’s government actively works towards that outcome and how populist right-wingers, like neo-nazis can easily take advantage of that to shape a narrative.
Completely true. And also completely ignored by pretty much any populist right-wing party everywhere, which ultimately is what we’re talking about here.
As to why calling someone ‘not German’ when that very same person does not identify as such is ‘wrong af’… I’ve got nothing to say to that.
A uniform ‘national’ culture indeed does not exist. However, there are cultural values that are carried by a majority of people in a nation and whenever a minority group holds values that are in direct opposition to those majority values, there’s going to be trouble. This applies to Erdogan supporting Germans of Turkish descent as much as it does to pale germanic neo-nazis.
If this is directed at me then I am sorry you feel that way.
The point I was trying to make, which I think I succeeded in, was basically that fascism/totalitarianism (of which Nazism is the best known example I think) has no shortage of “others” to stand against/hate, and this can be seen even in Germany, with the Turks.
I certainly don’t mean to state that “Turks need to assimilate better,” mostly because, for someone who is a Nazi/fascist sympathizer, I doubt there’d ever be a sufficient level of assimilation.
Nice.
It’s hard to paint these issues with a broad brush but I can’t help remarking that charges historically leveled both against Jews and against WWII-era Japanese Americans were that they were not “really” members of the country in which they lived. To some extent this expresses the extent to which not all categories can be boiled down to national allegiance (we see this in our own discourse wrt the wealthy; I’ve seen it claimed the rich are more loyal to their bank accounts than to their nation), because human identity is complex. But it can also lead to dark & dangerous places, perhaps because citizenship is the surest strongest guarantor of human rights at the moment (for more on this, see Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands, in which he discusses the extreme peril of statelessness).
Haven’t checked in awhile, but the term used to be fremdarbeiter (stranger /foreign worker), and didn’t allow full citizenship, much like France.
As such, it was at best second class citizenship and allowed for all sorts of divisions, etc.
It may have changed since last I looked at it, which was a long time ago.
Surely Jacob Wahl wrote about this on his blog under a pseudonym 10 years ago.
Experts have finally found the one sector where Trump successfully brought outsourced jobs back into the hands of Americans!
Damn… that is pretty on point.
Is that Bartender running for anything, because I wouldn’t be against voting for him.
Menzo
6322
Yeah, I’m not interested in accommodating people who want to use democratic systems and structures to argue in bad faith with the goal of toppling those systems. I don’t think we’re obliged to hear them out.
I didn’t realize that this happened to Bronies. Mostly because I didn’t ever think about Bronies.
This twitter thread is crazy.
ShivaX
6324
It happened to quite a few online groups. Which was the plan.
Hell, a lot of the rise of the alt-right has been traced back to Gamergate.
The brony thing is a little odd, because while I’m sure theres a subset of white supremacists in that population, as in any online community, the recent article on the brony white supremacists problem wasn’t especially convincing to me that it’s, like, an epidemic.
Notably, it doesn’t contextualize the size of the boards they cited vs. other MLP fandom boards, and it cited numbers of racist images without contextualizing them as a proportion of the overall board usage.
Taking it with a big old hunk of salt, because it’s Quillette, but this article lays out my basic concerns with the Atlantic piece. Basically, I don’t know if MLP fandom has a significant white supremacist problem or not, but that article didn’t do the work to convince me it does. Clearly some of the people quoted in that article think it’s a problem, and they probably have reasons for their concerns, but it struck me as, at a minimum, somewhat sloppy reporting.
RichVR
6326
Let us not forget the furries.
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