Also, I’m pretty sure there’s a P&R forum around here somewhere.
Also, I’m pretty sure there’s a P&R forum around here somewhere.
Sorry Rich, at the risk of sounding a bit dim, you’re going to have to explain this analogy to me. I was just going to leave it but it’s bugging me and it seems everyone else gets it. Clue me in someone. I’m in agreement with your previous paragraph however.
I’m just saying that if I was a father and had a daughter, I’d arm her with specifics and not generalities. I’d give her the playbook from the male perspective, and not depend on assuming “all women already know all this” because in my observation their tribal knowledge isn’t protecting them effectively. I wouldn’t send my kid out there assuming the other women will educate her.
That’s not blaming the victim. That’s desperately trying to prevent the victimization opportunity. Hell of a difference.
I’m going to wish really hard that whatever segment of the male population feels driven or entitled to this unacceptable behavior police themselves and reform. Since that’s not going to be effective, the next best thing I could think to do is give the women the best weapons I know and wish them good luck.
It’s exceptionally frustrating then, to be told that there’s something fundamentally oppressing and problematic about that, and that I’m trying to shift the blame. It’s a problem of scope. I can’t fix all the boys, but I can give a woman a weapon and teach her how to use it.
I was just about to post this. I have never read the game, but I do have a 2 year old daughter and you bet your ass I’m going to read it in the next few years and distill it down to her so she can detect it.
In an ideal world we could snap our fingers and be rid of scumbags, but reality doesn’t work that way. All we can do is arm women with the knowledge to detect and deflect.
I don’t see why that’s victim blaming at all. You people need to calm the fuck down.
Giving a woman pepper spray isn’t blaming the victim. It’s protecting the victim.
Yep. I want to suggest in the future, any posts about forum drama (here or elsewhere) should automatically start, begin, and end there because we’ll inevitably have some foul behavior and language show up (but don’t worry, there’s good people on both sides!)
I didn’t get it either =)
I also don’t understand the venom directed @aszurom1, outside thinking it’s victim blaming, which seems to be a bit of a stretch to me. I know if I had a daughter I would 100% look into the subject and see what could be taught to help avoid the psychology tricks they employ.
I don’t know why a number of guys out there think there a bunch of women out there that have no idea what they’re up against or how to protect themselves. There might be a few, but we’re told pretty early about the risks. The thing is, women are not perfect, and we get to be girls to, not GIRLS, but immature imperfect girls. We should be allowed to get drunk and make poor decisions once in awhile that doesn’t lead to sexual assault and rape. Trying to “arm” women with information or even more pepper spray puts all the weight on her shoulders which is what’s been done for years. It’s time to for more attention on the other side.
With Weinstein and these accusations out there, you can’t possibly think if only they read more or watched more TV it would have all been different.
I think what they’re getting at here is that PUAs use a specific set of techniques to psychologically manipulate women. If you are aware of those specific things, it becomes much easier to counter them because you know you’re being played. It’s different than just saying “men can be manipulative jerks so watch your back”, it’s “he’s using a third-level marking technique and negging my elbow with his alternate wingman” or whatever.
All that assumes their techniques aren’t complete bullshit, anyway. They certainly haven’t been subjected to scientific testing. I suspect all the jargon and whatnot helps those guys be more confident, because they’re following a script not floundering around, and confidence is attractive.
Manipulative behavior has been around since before the dawn of civilization, and it’s something we all engage in to some extent (babies learn it very quickly, as do pets). Being taught how to notice and respond to it is a perfectly fine way to spend some parenting time. It should be noted there are no arcane tricks that PUA’s use; they’re just highly manipulative people focused on a specific objective and lack the morality to either understand or care about the harm it can cause . It’s that pairing of manipulation along with complete disregard for others which makes it so particularly odious.
As for MRA people, there’s a lot of disdain toward them for good reason. First and foremost, there is no concerted “anti-man” movement any more than there is an “anti-white” movement in this country. Men aren’t being oppressed, full stop. Is there occasional backlash? Sure. If you need a support network to deal with it, I strongly suggest finding that with friends, family or in a therapist’s office rather than a community largely filled with misogynistic jerks (that’s me being kind, btw).
As an aside, I’ll also point out the example of subliminal advertising most of us became familiar with - the popcorn and soda images in theaters causing tons more sales - was actually fabricated, as the impact of such images is very minimal and essentially initiates the Recency Effect/psychological priming whenever it does anything.
eg - Suppose I’m hungry (I am, so this will be easy for me).
If I get images of pizza flashed before my eyes, I’ll be a bit more likely to choose pizza as the solution to my hunger. That part actually works, although it’s a fairly modest bump.
However, if I’m NOT hungry or if there’s a negating reason to not partake (like absurd prices at a concessions booth), all the images in the world will neither make me hungry nor cause me to abandon my wallet discipline.
One might wonder if we spent more time and effort shaming the men who engage in that kind of behavior and tearing down the systems that enable and encourage their “mastery” of these techniques, women wouldn’t need to go out into the world psychologically armored against the latest and greatest form of sexual assault douchebaggery in order to be safe.
I understand what’s being implied here but my position is pretty simple. If someone is sexually assaulted, raped or whatever terminology you want to use that forced her into sex she didn’t’ want to have, my response is not going to be if only she educated herself more, if only her dad did something more, if only she was different. I am going to put the spotlight on the aggressor.
And for the umptenth million time, a lot of women get more than the look out for bad guys talks from people who care about them, and it’s lot sooner than you think. Some of course don’t because they don’t have a good support system to begin with.
And it doesn’t matter how many times you talk to someone or push someone or educate someone, a heart is a heart, humans are imperfect. You’re asking women to be perfect all the time and that’s not going to happen. Asking women to be perfect or men to not rape, the latter seems a lot more logical to me… but then again, I’m not a guy so maybe it seems reasonable to think women should never put their guard down, get drunk or fall in love and not make reasonable choices from that perspective.
Giving a woman pepper spray does not imply that she was at fault for not protecting herself. Fault always lies with the attacker.
Rape is bad, all assault is bad, anything not fully consensual is bad. It’s a bummer I felt like I had to say that.
Speaking as someone that raised a daughter, I think there’s a responsibility to acknowledge the reality of the world. I want every interaction my daughter has with anyone else to be a safe one, but the reality is that there are bad guys out there that will try to do terrible things to her if given the chance. As a father, I’d totally love it if we didn’t have PUAs, misogynists, rapists, or general assholes that treat women like dirt. I do what I can to fight that crap wherever and whenever I come across it. But while I’m trying to change the world, my daughter has to live in this one.
If you’re crossing a street with the walk signal going, at a crosswalk, and a car runs the light and hits you, it’s totally their fault.
But I still look both ways before I cross the street, because I’d rather avoid getting hit by a reckless driver, rather than be forced to hold them accountable after the fact.
I wish someone would teach women how to deal with used car salesmen, because my mother-in-law has been suckered twice now in the last 18 months. Sigh…
The reason to some people these suggestions feels like victim blaming is because it basically is asking “who must react to this problem”, and then stating that the problem with men abusing women should be addressed by solutions women have to implement. What women want is for men to recognize that the problem begins with them.
Now look, I’m a bit old school as well. Locking your car isn’t blaming the victims of theft. Walking around with millions of dollars of jewelry in a favela in Brazil is going to get you robbed at best, and we all know that without stating it. Women don’t need to be reminded they’re the physically weaker sex when debating What To Do about men abusing women.
Where I don’t know the answer to is when men telling women, “look, we’re just telling you, men are shitty people.” That’s… not the answer women want to hear. Maybe it’s “realistic” but we can hope for making men better. And… domestic violence is one of the largest problems women face. So it’s not just those “bad guys” hiding in the bushes or slipping roofies in drinks.
“Not the answer we want to hear” is fine, and makes sense. Just don’t call it victim-blaming, because that will confuse dudes who are well-meaning non-rapists but don’t happen to be educated with modern feminist thinking.
Yea that’s the hard one. You can’t disentangle feelings of the reader from the intents of the speaker. It’s probably not fair, buts it’s the way things are now.
How exactly is, for example, educating teenagers in city suburbs about the dos and dont’s of being in a city late at night, taking away from police patrolling those areas or social services targeting recidivists with support for addiction/mental health services?
Society absolutely should target preventing people from committing awful acts AND target people from unwittingly becoming victims of awful acts.
To argue otherwise because of a misconception of what the word ‘blame’ means is terrifyingly wrong (and dangerous).