New Fallout 3 Info

[bago]

Sweet Jesus, it’s like computer programs were all numbers or something.

[Charles]

Wait, so are you speaking from memory of playing U7 when it first came out, or did you just play it a few months, or a year or two ago? Because that rather changes things.

Not when it first came out – I didn’t play it till 93 or 94. I’ve tried replaying it a few times since, but I rarely get out of Trinsic. The last time I tried to replay it was at least 5 years ago though.

I remember lots about other parts of the game. I remember most of U7 and most of SI, only I can’t remember specific details. I haven’t played SI since 96 or so, and I still remember all the different mages in the mage city and how they fought with each other, or The Fellowship people, who were honestly good this time, and the murderous automaton. The family living out on the frozen wastes. And SI was more of a dungeon romp, when you get down to it.

[Charles]

And yet from a gameplay perspective what this amounts to is clicking on every NPC you encounter and then dutifully going through the dialogue tree until you exhausted every possibility.

I certainly enjoyed U7 when I played it back in the day, but those sure are some fancy rose-colored glasses you got there.

Actually, you can play Ultima 7 without talking to most of the characters. It’s a fairly non-linear game and almost everything in it is optional.

And solving the murder isn’t just about talking to everyone, you have to connect the dots, and find evidence and such as well. And in most of the cases, you have choices in who to blame. That specific instance you are referring to? You can blame the kid who has been framed, I believe. Not that I ever did it. Avatar, you know.

And even if you are correct, how does that make it any worse than modern games, which still, for the vast majority, don’t offer you any freedom or choice at all? Is Half Life 2 better because you can shoot a gravity gun, even though you can’t open doors yourself?

[beloved_one]

Is Half Life 2 better because you can shoot a gravity gun, even though you can’t open doors yourself?

Yes, HL2 is better because you can shoot a gravity gun; shooting a gravity gun is lots more fun than clicking through RPG dialogue trees!

[GregB]

And even if you are correct, how does that make it any worse than modern games, which still, for the vast majority, don’t offer you any freedom or choice at all? Is Half Life 2 better because you can shoot a gravity gun, even though you can’t open doors yourself?

Oh it doesn’t really make it any worse. And I’m right there with you in the criticism of of the characters in Oblivion.

I guess what I’m getting at is that games are particularly good at modeling environments and the interesting things a player can do in them. The soul of a game comes from how designers use this strength. I’d use Bioshock as a good recent example of a game that does this. Rapture is a fascinating place. You can learn so much of the story in Bioshock just by wandering around and looking at and interacting with the world. And that, to me anyway, is what I most remember when I think back on games I’ve played.

In games like U7 and Fallout, I remember the world and the aestetic the devs came up with, but not so much the characters. In U7 I have vague memories of different characters, but this is all overshadowed by a less pleasent memory of Iolo constantly asking me to feed him.

At this point in time, games are horrible at character. It’s all just about pulling concepts on how to write believable characters from other media. Ignoring for a moment the fact that good characters are hard enough to come by in more traditional media, drawing on movies, comics, books, etc. would be fine if games were far enough along technically to make it believable in an interactive space. But we’re just not there yet. I am glad that devs keep plugging away at it, though. I think Mass Effect was an interesting, if flawed, baby step.

[Charles]

The interesting thing about your post is that Ultima 7 also still holds the crown for most complete world simulation.

[zengonzo]

In games like U7 and Fallout, I remember the world and the aestetic the devs came up with, but not so much the characters. In U7 I have vague memories of different characters, but this is all overshadowed by a less pleasent memory of Iolo constantly asking me to feed him.

I think you’re absolutely right about the environment being a critical component to character, but I disagree about the characters from Fallout not offering much.

I don’t think that a character necessarily has to be rich or deep to be a good, compelling character - it’s more important that they evoke impressions. One of the most memorable characters from the series, Dogmeat, is perhaps the simplest. Character design alone (graphically-speaking) is ostensibly superficial and shallow, but used properly can be used to reflect quite a bit.

In that light, I think Fallout’s characters are great. They might not have really struck with you, certainly, but they were as effective as any of the other environmental dressings. I think the characters of Oblivion are significantly less striking than their environments.

[Brian_Rucker]

Most complete world simulation, with RPG elements, I’ve ever played is Romance of the Three Kingdoms X. There each NPC is an agent that can potentially grow, switch sides, or act according to an independent agenda. Most don’t advance very far but there’s so much possibility for things going in odd directions that even some scut NPC can end up running a few provinces. You can play a character that does nothing but wander around and improve his stats or unlock collectables, or one with the ambitions to rise to rule China and most anything inbetween, who exists in this fluid sea of NPCs and events.

Other games that verge in on this include King of Dragon Pass, Crusader Kings, and the old space sim Terminus. They have NPCs that create a dynamic context by virtue of their own interactions with each other as well as the player.

That’s a helluva lot more interesting than branching storypaths and dialogue trees. Much more fascinating than scripted NPCs you can follow to the bathroom and the tavern.

That’s one of the reasons why strategy games are the best roleplaying games.

[Jazar]

The interesting thing about your post is that Ultima 7 also still holds the crown for most complete world simulation.

It was a very sad moment when I realized the great RPG games that followed Ultima 7/SI like Baldur’s Gate paled in the interactivity and world simulation department (ooh look, I’m walking on a painting). I was hoping that as the tech improved, the world simulation would continue to thrive. Sadly U7/SI are still the pinnacle.

That’s a helluva lot more interesting than branching storypaths and dialogue trees. Much more fascinating than scripted NPCs you can follow to the bathroom and the tavern.

I haven’t played the games you mentioned and I would like to give them a try based on your reccomendation, but I do enjoy the minutiae of small events like an NPC getting up from his chair and opening a window to let some light in. I think it breathes more life into a world then some random guy taking over a country but that’s just my opinion.

[Charles]

Seventeen. Years. Old.

[Zylon]

And sure, you didn’t have to click on every dialogue option, but you know damn well that you did because that’s how we play games. We explore every possibilty in order to find and exploit the best possible outcome.

Is it even possible to imbue dialog with gameplay in a sensible manner? The best, most emotionally compelling and well-written dialog tree in the world is still just a tiresome click-fest once you’ve been through it a few times. I know Oblivion took a stab at this problem with the pie minigame, but apparently that was too much of an abstraction for most people.

I’d like to see an actual conversational minigame with some degree of AI simulation guiding how the various dialog choices are parceled out. Nothing on the order of Chris Crawford’s various interactive fiction engines, but rather just enough controlled randomness to give the gamer something to react to.

[quatoria]

It was a very sad moment when I realized the great RPG games that followed Ultima 7/SI like Baldur’s Gate paled in the interactivity and world simulation department (ooh look, I’m walking on a painting). I was hoping that as the tech improved, the world simulation would continue to thrive. Sadly U7/SI are still the pinnacle.

Yeah, agreed. That hit me as such a massive letdown, when I fired up Baldur’s Gate for the first time. I guess the Ultima games spoiled me - but I wanted a massive world to explore and discover. Walking on bitmaps, not so impressive, by comparison.

[Kunikos]

Sweet Jesus, it’s like computer programs were all numbers or something.

No, they can be completely filled with blank spaces!

[Kunikos]

It’s easier to have unique dialog for NPC’s when you don’t have to record voice actors for each of them.

What a pity modern gamers seem to be illiterate.

It’s weird, I usually turn on subtitles and skip the voice dialogs since they take forever to say everything. I like the voice overs for the cutscenes but that’s about it.

[Brendan]

It’s weird, I usually turn on subtitles and skip the voice dialogs since they take forever to say everything. I like the voice overs for the cutscenes but that’s about it.

I do the same thing.

I’d be perfectly happy without voice acting in most games. I don’t mind reading the same dialog by ten NPC’s in a three hour gaming session, but to hear ten different NPC’s muttering the same thing in the same voice annoys me.

[Kunikos]

I do the same thing.

I’d be perfectly happy without voice acting in most games. I don’t mind reading the same dialog by ten NPC’s in a three hour gaming session, but to hear ten different NPC’s muttering the same thing in the same voice annoys me.

I wouldn’t want a game devoid of voice acting. Banter voices and cutscene voices are important for giving more character to your NPCs. For example, Torment did a very fine job with this sort of thing. If it was just straight text for all of the companions and foozles you wouldn’t get as good of a sense for their attitudes and such (they would have to add modifier text for every dialog to impart the tone of voice).

[PeterK]

I wouldn’t want a game devoid of voice acting. Banter voices and cutscene voices are important for giving more character to your NPCs. For example, Torment did a very fine job with this sort of thing. If it was just straight text for all of the companions and foozles you wouldn’t get as good of a sense for their attitudes and such (they would have to add modifier text for every dialog to impart the tone of voice).

As long as it’s not done like Hellgate: London.

[Kunikos]

As long as it’s not done like Hellgate: London.

How is that? You’ll have to explain because not many people bought it.

[PeterK]

How is that? You’ll have to explain because not many people bought it.

When you talk to most of the NPCs, there’s a brief voice clip and text dialogue. The voice clip generally had little relationship to the text that followed.

[roguefrog]

traits have been folded into perks and you get to pick one every level.

We weren’t talking about Fallout 3. But yes, you will be able to waste a perk to get Bloody Mess.

The other traits had negative tradeoffs, something perks didn’t have. And some of them changed the game in significant ways I.E. Fast Shot removed aimed shots from the game. Bethesda will probably change those.