Repair bills were removed awhile ago because they could not reaosnably balance them.
Not sure why there is such a desperate need for a money sink.
I am not quite going off my head like pg is on this one; its going to depend dramatically on how these call ins are implemented. An artillery strike that takes awhile to arrive does not seem super useful, for example. A one time coolant flush of 35% of your heat may not really be as worthwhile as having a permanent module in place.
pg1
1862
I don’t know of one FPS where I liked any kind of air or artillery strikes and say they added to the game. A good example is Tribes Ascend where they were basically bullshit and spammed. No skill call in strikes without any counters. Basically a huge net negative for the game. There’s already many games in MWO where it takes minutes for all the LRM spam to die off. The last thing we need is more long range spam going on.
Soapyfrog the issue for me is it seems clearly P2W and even having the CBill and MC versions be different is terrible. It also set ups future patterns on how they will do other consumables. I’m not going to pay 25 MC a match and whatever. That means I’d be paying more a month to play MWO than a MMORPG. Ridiculous. My unit of about 20 people has already had most come out and say they won’t spend anymore on the game until they change this. I feel the same. I won’t stop playing and I still have 6000 MC but I’m not spending anymore. I’m also a lot more likely now to jump ship to another game.
They removed RNR because it was punishing free players and now they are going to basically require free players to spend 12,500 CBills a match to remain competitive. About 1/8 of their average earnings in CBills. That’s pretty bad. It’s a terrible decision on every level. I don’t even think it will make them more money overall. It’s tarnished their reputation and turned many supporters against them. Even if there was no MC cost involved I’d be against it.
Wow, I do my occasional check in on this game and find out they went from slowly improving it to shooting it in the head. The fact that the real money versions are massively superior per slot makes it painfully obvious the CBill versions can’t compete. Just looking at their own graphic explaining it shows it is clearly an awful idea that doesn’t balance anything. If you have modules that are actually useful at this point then the CB versions are even worse than they appear. “Well I could have one good consumable and a shitty one to go with my permanent module, or I could have three good ones. Clearly this is completely balanced!” This definitely doesn’t make me think the devs know what they are doing.
Also, isn’t making the real money versions of weapons flat out better is pretty much the definition of pay-to-win?
pg1
1864
Yes, it is. This is P2W. I guess it goes together with their new grind tournaments. The overall winner of the last tournament played 485 matches over a weekend to win. So basically that’d be 485 x 25 MC = 12,125 MC or ~$50. I’m sure some genius looked at their numbers and saw how many people were playing hundreds or thousands of matches a month and thought how much money they could make if a decent number could be convinced to pay $0.10 a match for P2W benefits. They are trying to rationalize it as it’s an option and MAYBE the CBill version is better (and maybe it is, but it won’t always be) but it’s bullshit. The fact many are missing is the top tier mechs ala the RVN-3L and AS7-D-DC already have ECM and 4 module slots. It just makes them even better. Whoever is making this decision should be fired. Garth who I consider a hardcore player, and is the community rep, has been eerily silent. I’m pretty sure he strongly disagrees with it.
Hysteria aside, this has been a pretty good patch. Matchmaking is working great, Netcode feels great, the UI continues to improve.
The new stat tracking is fun too. Here’s my results for the evening playing or weekly 4-man romp:
Mech' MP W. L. R. K. D. R. Dmg. XP Time
SPIDER SDR-5V 3 2 1 2.00 3 1 3.00 621 2,565 1,169
SPIDER SDR-5D 1 0 1 0.00 0 1 0.00 136 176 221
TREBUCHET TBT-3C 15 8 7 1.14 21 5 4.20 8,459 20,059 4,954
TREBUCHET TBT-7K 1 0 1 0.00 1 1 1.00 558 721 298
And the map breakdown:
Map. M. W. L. Ratio Time
Forest Colony 1 0 1 0.00 232
Caustic Valley 4 4 0 4.00 1,324
River City 4 3 1 3.00 1,390
Forest Colony Snow 4 2 2 1.00 1,188
Frozen City Night 4 0 4 0.00 1,163
River City Night 1 1 0 1.00 476
Alpine Peaks 2 0 2 0.00 869
Pretty neat! (Fixed the formatting)
It is very mild. My standard is World of Tanks, which is P2W but generally you don’t notice it very much at all. This is nowhere near that bad.
It also set ups future patterns on how they will do other consumables. I’m not going to pay 25 MC a match and whatever.
So don’t… I doubt it will matter at all since you can produce the same effects with c-bills if you really want. I would use consumables strategically if they were implemented like in World of tanks, which sounds like more or less what they are doing. I too would never pay MC for them. From the little info that has been released it does not seem like a big deal.
They removed RNR because it was punishing free players and now they are going to basically require free players to spend 12,500 CBills a match to remain competitive.
This is crazy hyperbole, given that I am doubting reducing your heat by 35% once per game is going to produce a meaningful competetive edge.
My concern is with the specific implementation, as I don’t think CoD style call-ins are really appropriate for this kind of game. But we will wait and see!
Edit: also, even if your worst fears are true, 12,500 cbills per match is literally a joke amount of money.
_scout
1867
I’m with Soapyfrog here, though I admit, so far I just avoid their/the MWO forum, just read the patches and play (which since I left their forums behind is a lot more fun again).
Point is, the actual and the future implementation matters.
If I look back at how “overpowerd” LRMs where percieved when they buffed them up and then scouts could tag other mechs for LRM boats and how as another step AMS and now ECM came into the game and totally changed that, it might be again that we are just seeing the first step of a longer series of different mechancis that will balance each other out.
The two different implementations of coolant look different enough to being able to be balanced so it’s in the end a tactical option but not that large that you absolutely need it.
Also team work - IMHO - and being able to coordinate over voice still matter more than 35% less heat.
Regarding the arty strikes, again I’ll just await their implementation and see what else will come on top of that.
They might be the FOTM for a while, likely only till the next patch and new stuff comes up.
pg1
1868
P2W stuff even in the slightest to me is on another level beyond any balancing of LRMs, ECM, or whatever. There’s a good chance I’ll end up stopping playing over it and same with members in my unit. I don’t think you guys play competitive eight man matches. These are on another level compared to PUG stomps or solo queuing. When you play vs the best you need every advantage you can get. Here’s an example of a match we played vs an undefeated RHoD team -
Do you see how insanely close that is? You don’t think P2W consumables would alter the result? Do you believe this game is healthy enough to lose people extremely dedicated to it and that spend money? Then even if it is healthy enough to weather these losses, is it worth it over adding a 25 MC ($0.10) P2W feature per match? If it’s not P2W why isn’t the exact same 35% one module large coolant flush offered for CBills? Are you really going to believe MWO with all it’s constant struggle in balance issues is going to magically get balance correct on consumables?
My main problem with strikes is the sheer number of them possible. Most Assault matches last 4-5 minutes. There’s 16 players. Each could have an air and artillery strike, plus LRMs. That’s a lot of spam in a short period of time. I don’t know how you can balance that without new gameplay mechanics.
I think you are a fine fellow pg, but with this comment you are starting to jump up your own ass, if you’ll pardon the phrase.
Do you see how insanely close that is? You don’t think P2W consumables would alter the result?
Impossible to say, not enough information… but you are right in a hyper-cometitive environment every little bit counts, or can seem like it counts, or at least, you wouldn’t want to leave it on the table if you could have it in your pocket.
However you are talking about needing finely honed comptitive balance NOW!!! during an open beta which is not even feature complete. IMHO you should keep playing (if you find it interesting anyway) so that you can speak meaningfully about the changes they do make when they make them.
Are you really going to believe MWO with all it’s constant struggle in balance issues is going to magically get balance correct on consumables?
Of course not. There is an iterative process going on here. Add new feature, observe, tweak, approach a point of balance. You can be a part of the process or you can walk away because you don’t have your uber-competitive balance RIGHT NOW!!!
For player run competitions in any case it would be trivial to disallow these consumables until it is felt they are balanced. RHoD already has weight class limitations, why would it be different than that?
I don’t know how you can balance that without new gameplay mechanics.
Nevermind that, we have no actual gameplay information about how these things will work, with the exception of coolant flush (which as far as I can tell is still relatively conjectural).
Tempest in a teapot so far.
pg1
1870
Whatever. I’ve seen other F2P games get ruined by similar moves. QuakeLive or Tribes Ascend are good examples. If MWO follows through on this it’ll be going down the same path. This is much different than other balance issues because it’s monetized. I’d be very surprised if it was possible to monitor if people use consumables or not in RHoD. Even if RHoD can effectively outlaw them you end up splitting the community up into players who are OK with consumables then people who aren’t. It’s silly and exactly the same deal which happened in QuakeLive and Tribes Ascend. Neither has more than a slight fraction of the player base their old non-F2P games had. I’m just getting tired of this F2P garbage. This is the only F2P game I’ve spent money on. If this goes through I’ll regret it and likely won’t spend on any F2P game again.
Anyhow I think it’s obvious why they need this. CW is delayed, they are doing good work but must be struggling for cash. Most people don’t have reasons to spend money on the game after a while. There’s a good chance I’ll never buy a Hero mech or cosmetics. I did buy premium time and mech bays (and likely will in the future at least until my MC runs out). There is nothing else I see with any value to however. I’d pay for private or custom servers but that’s about it. MWO is very niche and I haven’t been able to get anyone to even try it (I’ve asked quite a few other my Quake buddies). If you look here -
http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/101374-be-a-hero-challenge-winners-and-statistics/
You can sort of figure out some player numbers I think. The event lasted 62 hours, so 338,038 matches divided by 62 = 5452 matches an hour. I’d guess that puts the concurrent players at somewhere between 3k to 10k. Respectable but I’m not sure if that’ll sustain development in the long run.
Unquestionably they need to figure how to make money in a niche envronment in a way that does not also kill their playerbase. It is a difficult problem and I am willing to cut them a huge amount of slack while they figure it out. You deride free to play, but MWO would not have gotten made at all without this model, I don’t think.
That thread claims 100,000 players over the weekend with 8000 tournament participants. These are not bad numbers for a niche game! But they still do need to figure out how to wring a certian amount of money from that playerbase.
ShivaX
1872
Wut? The only thing in WoT that was P2W was gold ammo - and they made that available to everyone last patch.
For the entire history of WoT, gold ammo has been more egregiously pay-to-win than anything that has even been hinted at in MWO. You would literally make you gun more effective by paying real money. Is that a thing I gave a shit about while playing over 2500 matches in beta and over 4000 matches in release? Nope.
Yes, now at long last you can buy gold ammo for credits, but that is still pay-to-win according to some people shrug. What i am saying is… it really is not a big deal.
They caved already:
http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/103677-consumables-back-to-the-drawing-board/
So it’s official, MC purchased consumables will not be superior to c-bill + GXP unlock consumables.
The artillery seems more like an area denial weapon than anything… 6.5 to 8 second flight time, target area marked by smoke from the moment ts triggered and maximum one per 4 seconds for the whole team. Damage does not really seem all that scary either (didn’t long toms do 20 damage? I forget) Air strike is the same thing but with a different shaped target area.
I’m not unhappy with how this is shaping up.
Reading closer its the delay for a new strike is 4 seconds after the end of the last strike, so not really possible to do a concentrated barrage.
_scout
1876
I can understand pg worries, that in competitive matches, every single 1% that you can get to your advantage is going to be used. Just look at the bigger alliances in Eve when they throw stuff at each other.
OTOH, PGI has a bit of history not getting their message along pretty good, or requiring drama threads in their forum to get on the right course (I hope not the later) so I withhold my opinions on game changes and just wait for the actual implementation and the time after that. IMHO it’s just a bit of a pitty though that their forum are always so ueber tense :-/.
I can’t take it seriously in an open beta where game balance is subject to significant shifts in various ways, literally almost week to week. In any case the size of the playerbase that gives a shit if this team beat that team in some random 8 man at this moment in time is a fraction of a percent of the total players.
I have not even vaguely considered getting into competitive play, partly because I am not interested in dealing with raging control freaks but also because a) things are in flux and b) there is nothing to fight over.
pg1
1878
Things are always in flux in a F2P game unless development stops. If development stops the game is likely dead or near so.
I’m happy they’ve caved somewhat. I still believe if this had been the first version announced it would have generated as much hate. It’s like they are bargaining with us. Tried the really bad version first to see if they could get away with it. The problem with this version is it’s extremely expensive for F2P players. They basically can’t afford Cbills for it every match and if they use it a lot they won’t be progressing any further.
http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/103046-clarify-once-and-for-all-how-the-c-bill-flush-allows-two-uses-per-match/page__view__findpost__p__2006865
Yet now they are putting place a system much more expensive. What happened to the 5,000 and 7,500 Cbill prices? Those are reasonable and everyone has access to them. Even with premium time it might be hard to break even using consumables every match! That’s pretty crazy and shows it’s not about the gameplay but about the economics of them in Cbills and MC. It’s still ridiculous, it’s just not directly P2W anymore. Guys like my friend who have 160 million Cbills will be able to use this near forever. He’s already climbed the grind and beat it. He’ll be basically an enforcer if he decides to use consumables a lot. He’s already very good at the game with lots of play experience. Now he’ll have access to consumables to boost his skill and power even higher. If he chooses to use these every match people will want to as well to compete on his level.
What still bothers me most is these aren’t needed and they don’t tie into the gameplay. Why not require a command console to do call ins? Why isn’t coolant destructible? Why not make players who use coolant lose some of their overall heat dissipation value for the rest of the match? How can you counter coolant or strikes except by using them yourself? Why do these go into a module slot of all places? I’d be much happier if these were just very expensive like the other modules or tied to equipment you need to design into your mech. I still think it’s a bad design but they can still improve it.
JoshV
1879
It sounds like MWO has painted itself into a bit of a corner. Because they don’t have repair & rearm, one basically just gets money, with no loss of money. Though repair and rearm wasn’t feasible without some tier system, as some new guy who spent all his money on an atlas would pay the same repair/rearm bill as a veteran with an atlas. Contrast that with world of tanks, where the repair bills on the lower tiers were relatively cheap, while at higher tiers, they get downright ugly.
So this coolant / arty strike stuff sounds like a way to get people to spend that money stockpile, without giving a huge advantage. The matchmaker is in now right? So if paying for pay 2 win stuff truly makes one better, they are more likely be encountered if the playing with those of high skill or those who are also paying for the stuff.
pg1
1880
I’m fairly convinced the Elo match maker doesn’t work for groups. My KDR and WL keep climbing pretty steadily. I agree though you’ll more likely see these at higher levels of play, if they are accepted. I’m hoping people develop a stigma to using them. I won’t have problems shaming people who use them. The thing is it won’t harm the best players already on top of the grind. They can afford them in Cbills every match and make enough money a round to stay positive cash flow, especially with a Hero or Founder mech.
