The North Korea Thread

Lil’ Kim is not crazy. Crazy wouldn’t survive in his position. One of his generals would have taken him out and set him up as the new Great Leader if he were nuts. He, and the rest of the North Korean regime, are completely ruthless, manipulative bastards that have brainwashed a nation into following them, and then let millions starve to death while they lead a fairly decadent lifestyle.

Kaplan’s article was interesting. North Korea’s been playing the world for years now. It knows what buttons to push to provoke a response, especially with Bush. He’s too much of a lightweight when it comes to thinking things out. Woodwards new book has that great section when Prince Bandar has to carefully explain to him why he needs to care about North Korea.

Frankly, North Korea was sliding into complete anarchy 10 years ago, but Clinton and the West bailed them out with food aid. It sucks to say it, but probably would have been better in the long run to let those people starve and the regime collapse rather than to maintain the status quot. Now it’s a lot trickier if North Korea has nukes, and those people are still eating tree bark.

Any kind of military action on our part pretty much means Seoul gets leveled by the 12,000 artillery guns that the DPRK has within range. There’s absolutely no way we could take them all out before they savaged the South’s capital. And if North Korea feels it has nothing to lose, then maybe they pop a nuke at them, Japan, or even us.

They have no means of lobbing a nuke at us, and probably not at Japan, either. The threat to Seoul is sobering enough on its own, though.

Do you seriously believe bilateral talks (which NK proposed solely to derail the 6 party talks) would have magically stopped the North Koreans from developing nuclear weapons?

The Kim regime would have created nukes regardless of who was in power in the US; they started under Clinton and finished under Bush.

The USSR collapsed on Bush I’s “watch”. Do you give him all the credit for that? Try not to view the entire world through your “OMG BUSH IS THE ANTICHRIST!!1!” prism. Amazingly, the US is not responsible for literally everything that happens on the planet. If anything is to blame for this, it would be the appeasement of the North by South Korea and its economy being propped up by China; both of which have taken place over the past decade.

Erm, I hate to say it but the US isn’t the centre of the universe. Kim Jong didn’t wake up one morning and say “President X is in charge of the US. Lets build a nuke!”.

Come on people. This is a little bigger than partisan US politics.

The current speculation is that Kim’s regime developed nukes solely out of self-preservation; they saw the first Gulf War as an existential threat and began an active nuclear weapons program at that point. (Note: not the current Iraq conflict. Gulf War I.) They feel that without nuclear weapons they are subject to bullying and “regime change”. In a world where Seoul could be vaporized quite nicely in a few hours without a single unconventional weapon being used, that’s somewhat debatable, but the Kim regime has never been known for its keen grasp of international politics.

The real threat here isn’t whether North Korea has nuclear weapons. As I said, the North has had a deterrent ability to obliterate the South’s economy for decades, whether through nuclear weapons or artillery shells is kind of redundant. The real threat is if Kim decides to trade nukes for cash, much as he did with his missile technology. Which is why you’re seeing a lot of talk about embargos and inspection of outgoing NK ships. The problem is that the North will likely see that as an unacceptable provocation (its missiles-for-cash programs are a large part of what keeps the economy awash in cognac and cigarettes for the regime’s internal bribery purposes) and may respond, escalating the problem even further.

The thing is, they didn’t need to invent it. Nobody has to invent nukes anymore. The Nuclear Cat has not only gotten out of the proverbial bag, but gone on to have kittens as well.

The only ‘tech’ of concern is manufacturing tech, and even those secrets are well known. The hard part is getting what you need, not knowing what you need.

Why are we so concerned as to whether Kim can reach us by launching the nukes? It seems to me that a modern nation state could find many ways beyond launching to detonate a nuclear weapon in a foreign city or military base.

These are the guys who have routinely been kidnapping groups of Japanese civilians, right? I think they have the operative capability to get a nuclear weapon somewhere without needing a missile. Of course that is not as convenient as having a missile that can do it in 20-30 minutes, but nonetheless, it is still a problem.

One problem is that there are very limited options available for dealing with North Korea. At least, they’re limited if you’re at all interested in the results being an improvement rather than otherwise.

There may well exist military options that would be effective and would produce the aftermath everyone (except North Korea) might want, but I’ve never seen any of them. Nearly all of the scenarios I’ve seen talked about involve fairly iffy chances of actually erradicating the North’s nuclear program along with fairly strong chances of nasty consequences, mostly for South Korea but also for the entire region.

“Diplomatic” approaches can perhaps keep a lid on the situation but they so far have not really moved any closer to a solution. That should be no surprise, as the folks in Pyongyang don’t exactly play by the same rules as most other people. Ostracism doesn’t work on folks who are already ostracised, trade sanctions are dubious when applied to a nation with no trade, and threats are useless when the target of the threats has the capacity and presumably the will to turn those threats back on you tenfold.

Trying to bring North Korea into the world community seems a lost cause; Kim and his buddies don’t seem to care all that much about that. In fact, you could argue that if North Korea integrated more into the world community Kim and company would lose influence and power, which means they’re not likely to let that happen. There are no incentives you can give them to be less authoritarian, militaristic, and paranoid, because the regime does not seem to really have any interest in being otherwise.

About the only thing I can think of is something brazenly shameless like offering Kim a fat stipend, lots of spending cash, a villa in a nice part of China, and a chance to live out his life like a king far, far away form Pyongyang. Give him and his family and cronies something like that, as distasteful as it is, and perhaps they’d just take it. Leaving the world (or more accurately, China, South Korea, the USA, Russia, and Japan) to sort out the humanitarian disaster that would be left behind north of the 38th.

But then, that’s the kicker really. Anything other than the admittedly crappy status quo seems to lead to even worse stuff. “Regime change” there would make Iraq look like a church social even without a single shot being fired.

Precisely.

It’s not something they can just slip in a backpack, or even something they can smuggle as easily as a person. The weight of a fission bomb–even one as small as NK likely detonated–would be measured in tons. The Hiroshima bomb weighed five metric tons and was ten feet long. Not an easy thing to hide.

And yet you brought up his name in your previous post. Flatly stated, I think you do care, a lot. But what you don’t seem to care about is results. And that concerns me. Shouldn’t we be judging our politicians by more than their rhetoric? But in the end what happens is the result of the actions of the people involved, and the US president is an actor who can (hostorically) make a difference, despite a number of right wingers and pseudo-libertarians on this board claiming that the leader of the free world is a helpless child lost in the wilderness of the big bad world.

There is a need to be effective as a president, and just lumping every failure into a pile labeled “too big to deal with” is bullshit of the highest order. (So is intentionally overstating someone’s position to try and marginalize it, but that’s another post.)

Let’s go to Talking Points Memo to find someone who can state it better than I can:

For the US this is a strategic failure of the first order.

The origins of the failure are ones anyone familiar with the last six years in this country will readily recognize: chest-thumping followed by failure followed by cover-up and denial. The same story as Iraq. Even the same story as Foley.

North Korea’s nuclear program has been a problem for US presidents going back to Reagan, and the conflict between North and South has been a key issue for US presidents going back to Truman. As recently as 1994, the US came far closer to war with North Korea than most Americans realize.

President Clinton eventually concluded a complicated and multipart agreement in which the North Koreans would suspend their production of plutonium in exchange for fuel oil, help building light water nuclear reactors (the kind that don’t help making bombs) and a vague promise of diplomatic normalization.

President Bush came to office believing that Clinton’s policy amounted to appeasement. Force and strength were the way to deal with North Korea, not a mix of force, diplomacy and aide. And with that premise, President Bush went about scuttling the 1994 agreement, using evidence that the North Koreans were pursuing uranium enrichment (another path to the bomb) as the final straw.

Remember the guiding policy of the early Bush years: Clinton did it=Bad, Bush=Not whatever Clinton did.

All diplomatic niceties aside, President Bush’s idea was that the North Koreans would respond better to threats than Clinton’s mix of carrots and sticks.

Then in the winter of 2002-3, as the US was preparing to invade Iraq, the North called Bush’s bluff. And the president folded. Abjectly, utterly, even hilariously if the consequences weren’t so grave and vast.

Threats are a potent force if you’re willing to follow through on them. But he wasn’t. The plutonium production plant, which had been shuttered since 1994, got unshuttered. And the bomb that exploded tonight was, if I understand this correctly, almost certainly the product of that plutonium uncorked almost four years ago.

So the President talked a good game, the North Koreans called his bluff and he folded. And since then, for all intents and purposes, and all the atmospherics to the contrary, he and his administration have done essentially nothing.

Indeed, from the moment of the initial cave, the White House began acting as though North Korea was already a nuclear power (something that was then not at all clear) to obscure the fact that the White House had chosen to twiddle its thumbs and look the other way as North Korea became a nuclear power. Like in Bush in Iraq and Hastert and Foley, the problem was left to smolder in cover-up and denial. Until now.

Hawks and Bush sycophants will claim that North Korea is an outlaw regime. And no one should romanticize or ignore the fact that it is one of the most repressive regimes in the world with a history of belligerence, terrorist bombing, missile proliferation and a lot else. They’ll also claim that the North Koreans were breaking the spirit if not the letter of the 1994 agreement by pursuing a covert uranium enrichment program. And that’s probably true too.

But facts are stubborn things.

The bomb-grade plutonium that was on ice from 1994 to 2002 is now actual bombs. Try as you might it is difficult to imagine a policy – any policy – which would have yielded a worse result than the one we will face Monday morning.

Talking tough is great if you can make it stick and back it up; it is always and necessarily cleaner and less compromising than sitting down and dealing with bad actors. Talking tough and then folding your cards doesn’t just show weakness it invites contempt. And that is what we have here.

The Bush-Cheney policy on North Korea was always what Fareed Zakaria once aptly called “a policy of cheap rhetoric and cheap shots.” It failed. And after it failed President Bush couldn’t come to grips with that failure and change course. He bounced irresolutely between the Powell and Cheney lines and basically ignored the whole problem hoping either that the problem would go away, that China would solve it for us and most of all that no one would notice.

Do you notice now?

Why do we need to do anything?
let China handle it. Let them be the worlds police force, they own our ass anyways.

They’ll also claim that the North Koreans were breaking the spirit if not the letter of the 1994 agreement by pursuing a covert uranium enrichment program. And that’s probably true too.

Mayer, as cute as it was that you were unable to come up with this crap on your own, it wasn’t that

President Bush came to office believing that Clinton’s policy amounted to appeasement.

Clinton’s plan WAS appeasement and the North Koreans WERE ignoring it. How could Bush have stopped this? I don’t want handwaving about how ‘historically’ American Presidents have had superpowers, what would’ve stopped a crazy dictator from building the bomb? I can only think of one thing that actually would’ve stopped North Korea, and that would be ye olde unilateral unprovoked war of regime change.

We’re all so lucky to have access to these keen insights of yours.

It’s not something they can just slip in a backpack, or even something they can smuggle as easily as a person. The weight of a fission bomb–even one as small as NK likely detonated–would be measured in tons. The Hiroshima bomb weighed five metric tons and was ten feet long. Not an easy thing to hide.

Stick one in a container, put it on a ship and sail it into a harbour.

Yes, but North Korea does not need to rely on terrorist like tactics to get it done. They can use shipping containers, air transportation, etc.

I understand that the public perception of walking around with a full scale nuclear weapon in a suitcase is off base, but it seems to me that North Korea would have the ability to smuggle around something considerably larger than a suitcase as well.

I’m not sure that CHina taking over N. Korea would be a “win” for China, either. The reason they haven’t done so already, in fact, is because the land is essentially worthless; N. Korea has no important mineral reserves, nor is the land worth a crap for farming. Manpower and coastline are their only assets, and China already has plenty of both. The country served as a buffer between China and the West back when China cared about such things; now, they’d just as soon open up the border to start making some real money.

http://ytnmnj.ytmnd.com/

Here is why I think alot (not all) of this issue lays at the feet of Bush.

Regardless of who was president, I do feel the North Koreans would have went nuclear. It’s the way the North Koreans have gone about it that might have been different if Bush wasn’t in office.

Here is the thing, Bush after 9/11 labeled 3 countries as “the axis of evil”. Those three countries were Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Bush being the diplomatic lightweight didn’t fully realize what he was doing by singling out these countries. He basically said we are coming for you and by going into Iraq, he proved he was capable of doing it.

So where does this leave Iran and North Korea? Iran has the luxury of having some friendly factions surrounding it (Taliban in Afghanistan, Shia in Iraq, Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon). So Iran continues support for these factions/countries to keep the US from invading Iran.

North Korea on the other hand has no such friendly factions. Their closest ally and friend is China, and with China moving to a more capitalistic society, China’s idealogy is moving away (not with) North Korea’s. This puts North Korea in a very tight spot and probably why they feel that nukes are the only way they feel can guarantee the US will not invade.

Don’t get me wrong, North Korea would have developed a nuke. Would they have went about it differently if Bush hadn’t put them on the defensive, maybe.

Do I consider this a failure in diplomacy? Yes.

I think Bush needs to take some lessons from The Godfather:

Never let anyone outside the family know what you’re thinking.