NWN: The Emperor Has No Clothes

Again, I agree–that doesn’t sound like much fun. But you say that as though a long, scripted conversation tree with one player talking and the rest hanging around and getting bored is the only option. And I don’t agree that filling the game with Diablo-style hack and slash action is the only solution (although it is a solution).

The problem here is not a lack of action, but rather a lack of interaction. One player is interacting with the game, the others are spectators. And you are right–that’s bad design on the part of the module maker. As I said in my last post, scripted, tree-based conversations should be either short or infrequent in multiplayer modules. If you run conversations freeform, then anyone can participate, and that would probably be more entertaining for everyone.

Making sure eveyone has something to do most of the time will be key. But the one thing that few people have picked up on is the fact that, unlike a PnP game, you don’t have to stick together. If you want to script out conversations and NPC interaction, encourage players to split up. One of the key strengths of NWN is the fact that players really can go off in all directions. I’m working on a module that depends on it, in fact. The game offers other possibilities, too. I have some ideas for things that you could only pull off with multiple DMs, for instance.

So is the game PnP on a computer? No, not really. But it’s about as close as you come. In some ways its better, in others it’s worse.

The first paragraph above is EXACTLY how people described Baldur’s Gate. NWN was supposed to be the anti-Baldur’s Gate in this sense. Real AD&D role-playing, complete with a DM client. I mean, that was the whole goddamn point. If you say it wasn’t marketed that way, then you are either deluded or are willfully denying the past, kind of like the Japanese.

Now, of course, as Doug’s second quoted paragraph states, everything is crystal clear. It wasn’t meant to be PnP on the computer, it was supposed to be just 3D Baldur’s Gate that was more mod-able. No one thought it was bringing PnP to the desktop. That’s crazy talk, and dangerous 'round these parts. The high priests of Qt3 would never be fooled by such fiddle-faddle. They saw all from the beginning, and knew.

Mark Asher summed up my point exactly, which is that the multiplayer experience in a computer game is paced completely differently from a face-to-face game. I mean, just dragging out the battleboard for a big fight starts all sorts of things going: shit, how many magic arrows do you have left? four I think. Man, do we even want to do this? Maybe we should just run. Fuck, those owlbears are coming back the other way. Gents, we’re down to two Cure Light Wounds potions. Oh man, why did we open this damn door. Backs to the wall, men! The optimum online m/p pace is not the same. Look at what Philo Goodberry, if that is his real name, says he and his buddy were doing while the paladin talked to the NPCs: they were looting treasure. In other words, they were doing something, because it’s a computer game and they had to have something to do. Fuck, they just let one guy read all the shit and then TELEPORTED TO HIM when he moved. Fine and dandy, except that’s the antithesis of PnP. It’s so obvious now, of course, that it doesn’t merit posting about. That may have been the buzz on NWN messageboards, but no one here was fooled. Of course it’s not PnP, and was never meant to be. Keep dreaming.

If you like non-stop hack-n-slash D&D adventure, don’t want a lot of dialog or role-playing, and essentially want to recreate Diablo 2 with 3rd edition D&D rules, then yes, this is the game to buy. But that is a huge change from the way this game was billed.

One thing that I always wondered was how making a computer version of the D&D rules would make it a good role-playing game. The thing that makes D&D good is it’s combat system: really, it’s an excellent medieval/fantasy wargame. The 3rd edition rules actually clean up a lot of the combat (which was tortuous in earlier editions, thanks to unclear rules) and make it a great game for combat. Not all role-playing games are like this. Twilight 2000, Aftermath, and even Morrow Project (can you tell we were way into post-apocalypse games?) weren’t good wargames because weapons were too realistic (i.e. deadly) for that. No one wanted to get into a gunfight in Aftermath, because someone was gonna die, and quick too. Role-playing was a big part of those games because any scenario based heavily on combat would be unplayable. Call of Cthulhu is probably the best role-playing game I’ve ever played, yet I have played many sessions of that where there wasn’t a gun fired in anger. 3rd ed. D&D has such a good combat system that you don’t have to role-play since combat can carry the game, and that is exactly what NWN demonstrates.

Murphy also seems to have a reading comprehension disability, since he said

I never said that, smart man. I said that few people would be playing it in multiplayer in a persistent, epic, PnP-style way that so many people (including some posting to this board) seemed to be speculating about when the game was first released. Maybe, but I doubt it. More likely, it’ll be played as a 3D AD&D Diablo. And sure, there will be plenty of solo dungeons, so Bub can play all the single-player, single-character scenarios he wants. Maybe Ben will write some just for him.

The new 1.19 patch was just released. Just use the update function in the autoplay screen.

Yeah, well I don’t know what your problem is, but obviously you never play make-believe with you kids if you have any, either. What the hell is wrong with adults playing D&D? As long as they are not doing it from their parents’ basement and have jobs and normal social lives, what is it that you find scary? After all don’t you review video games for a living? Are you over 30? Maybe you should not be the one to talk.

I don’t know man. I broke the story at Gen Con 2000 and I previewed the game something like 5 times over the years. I’ve interviewed Trent Oster and Drs. Ray and Greg a couple times each… never did I get the impression you got. Never did anyone say it was going to be “real AD&D role-playing, complete with a DM client” they said it was going to be as close as they could get to that. I was led to believe it would be Baldur’s Gate with a 3D engine, a toolset, and a DM client… and that’s what it is. Fancy that! (This is also why I was disappointed about the henchmen limitation. Based on interviews I thought you’d get a full 6 member party. That was wishful thinking on my part because Ray actually only said “You’ll get to deal with henchmen, and they’re like the NPCs in BG. You can even fall in love with one or two of them” - Dr. Ray at E3 2002.

Seems to me your expectations, like mine, were out of line with reality then. I also think you might have been misled by wide-eyed and non-analytical previewers who didn’t listen carefully and reported potential rather than reality.

My daughter is two. Make believe pretty much entails me pretending to be a monster and chasing then tickling her or me pretending to enjoy tea out of her empty cups.

Hey, don’t get defensive. There’s nothing wrong with adults playing D&D, just the one’s who play after 30 actually DO tend to live in their mother’s basements … like you suggest. I haven’t found any like me (and Ben, and Jason Cross, and Jason Lutes, and presumably you) who’ve grown up. Ever been to Gen Con? Lovely people, just lovely, but it’s amazing how many look like they never moved past High School. Or shaved. Or bathed. Heh… It’s also amazing how many take on Tolkien names. The well-adjusted Post 30 D&D player is a rare find, and one I’d happily befriend! Anyway, I certainly didn’t mean that as an insult to you man. I’d love to find the right players and get a game of Call of Cthulhu going on!

After all don’t you review video games for a living? Are you over 30? Maybe you should not be the one to talk.

I do. Yes. And I am over 30. Yes. I review video games to supplement my writing business because I love video games and I love writing. I also do corporate communications and ad work, I review film, I write books, and I’m a stay at home dad. I shave and shower regularly too and my mom’s basement is about 1000 miles away.

The fact that many of them live in their parents’ basements, don’t have jobs, and lack normal social lives… ;)

Aftermath! I guess you are taking time off from the decade-long character creation process to post to this board. Not to mention that you are probably taking a break after your first round of combat in Twilight 2000, which you started in 1987.

Really, I’m amazed that anyone who has played those games can complain about anything taking too long. You would think that a former Morrow Project player could watch rocks erode and think it was too fast-paced.

Never did anyone say it was going to be “real AD&D role-playing, complete with a DM client” they said it was going to be as close as they could get to that.

Jesus H. Christ, Bub… talk about splitting hairs. This guy’s made some valid points. I think we all can agree on that. But this is one of the most inane things I’ve ever seen you say.

All the previews I’ve read played the game up exactly as Legolas described. That’s why I’m pretty surprised everyone’s backing away from that now. The previews, which I assume were based on what Bioware said the game would be and hands on play, all claimed that this was PnP role-playing come to the PC. The problem seems to be that “as close as they could get to that” isn’t all that close for some people.

–Dave

I’m not backing away from it. And Legolas’ complaint is not that the game fails to model PnP role-playing on the computer, but rather that it does that just fine and he finds the experience boring. You are splitting hairs, though, Bub. Every preview I’ve seen (including the two that I wrote) played up that aspect of the game. It even says as much on the back of the box.

And I agree that Legolas makes some good points, but I think he takes the argument too far. I think you can run the equivalent of a PnP game, with some alterations based on the medium. You can do plenty of other stuff, too–Diablo style dungeon crawls, or weird stuff like the Challenge module that BioWare made. It’s pretty flexible.

But I think a lot of people are expecting to have a fun PnP style role-playing session with a bunch of strangers that they hook up with when they jump into the game, and that’s a pretty unrealistic expectation. It doesn’t make for very good games at conventions with actual PnP RPGs, why should it be any different here? If that’s the sort of experience you want, play with people you know. Preferably a regular group.

“But I think a lot of people are expecting to have a fun PnP style role-playing session with a bunch of strangers that they hook up with when they jump into the game, and that’s a pretty unrealistic expectation.”

I haven’t given up on this yet, though I’m much more dubious about it now.

I think playing in a group doing a dungeon crawl will be a lot of fun. I’ll be happy enough to do that and get some mods I can play offline by myself. Those will be enough to make me quite happy with NWN.

Whatever Long, maybe I am inanely splitting hairs but I never got that impression so I am not disappointed that NWN isn’t D&D in a box.

Maybe that’s because I rarely read other people’s previews. But I did cover this game extensively, from first announcement (I literally wrote the first story on it) and never once did BioWare promise anything they haven’t delivered here. Maybe I asked better questions, or questioned the hype or something. For example, one of my very first questions to Oster was “Will the game support voice?” and he said he didn’t think they were going to go that route. “No voice?” I thought. “How can you simulate D&D with no voice support?” The impression I got was that NWN was going to be Vampire: TM-R with better tools, rules, and game behind it.

Long: “The problem seems to be that “as close as they could get to that” isn’t all that close for some people.”

No, the problem is some people don’t understand what is impossible when it comes to what a game can deliver effectively. Without full voice and I’d argue a video phone hookup to each player you simply cannot have NWN simulate D&D any better than it does. Legolas does have some excellent points, but most of them concerned things like alarms that ring when a friend is being attacked and other conveniences that would streamline the process.

Ok Ben, I just read the back of the box and it doesn’t say that the game simulates the PnP D&D experience. But it does say you can create a universe, so that’s false advertising right there.

I am misled! Woe unto me! :D

Ok… Time for me to jump in here and lay down the reality.

Over at insomniax.net, we play a fuckload of games. Basically, everything that ever got 4+ stars and can be played team-based or coop multi. We can trace this back to Dark Reign 1 or so. That’s about when the group got together.

Anyway, so we know our multiplayer is the point. Now, there are some things we don’t really dig about NWN, but they’re minor in comparison to the complaints we had about other games. We played Diablo, D2, Dungeon Siege, and (whatever that diablo clone Westwood did… it was ok.) So, after having just come off a month of solid Dungeon Siege, and then taking a week off and then jumping into NWN with 6-hour sessions nightly since the game’s release, I’d say the whole group of us is immensely pleased with the game.

We’re playing it as a coop adventure, much like we played DS. However, we like this game MUCH more. Also, we’re aspiring to reproduce some of the classic modules and also our own custom ones - why? Because we like a cooperative, tactical hack and slash. Also, we don’t have to share the world with 1000 dweebs like in Camelot or EQ - and frankly we’re about as tightly knit a group of online gamers as you’re going to find.

However, I can see Leggie’s points. Do I read the text? No, it’s a pain in the ass. Even in single player, I just want to know what I have to go fetch and where to get it. This isn’t like sitting down with Planescape Torment and savoring the story like a good novel. This is beer and pretzels and swords. That’s what we wanted, that’s what we got.

Now, we do recognize that there is a great potential to do much more with the game - and we intend to. At the moment, we’re definitely getting our collective $50 worth out of this thing, and loving every minute of it. Do I get bored waiting on someone to go sell, or when a couple of people go get a piss-n-refill break? Yeah, but we’re on Battlecom and we can talk and do other stuff. As far as what we’ll continue to get out of the game after we’ve played the provided module, that depends on what we and the rest of the fans put back into it. I’ve got high hopes, and I’m not judging the ultimate potential on just what was provided out of the box… Quake didn’t have CTF until somebody made it, remember.

IXAszurom

“We’re playing it as a coop adventure, much like we played DS. However, we like this game MUCH more. Also, we’re aspiring to reproduce some of the classic modules and also our own custom ones - why? Because we like a cooperative, tactical hack and slash. Also, we don’t have to share the world with 1000 dweebs like in Camelot or EQ.”

Amen.

Reviewing a game based on expectations is ludicrous. NWN does a great job at providing an engaging and EXTREMELY EXPANDLE multiplayer AD&D 3E experience. It seems a few of you have had your eyes set on some sort of holy grail, and have mentally tailored every previous discussion about the game to fit your hopes of an online take on the PnP experience.

I have never gotten the impression that it would somehow replicate the PnP experience; for chrissakes, a little common sense indicates what an exponential (and probably fruitless) undertaking that would be. What I did expect - and received - was an evolution of D&D online multiplay, with a well-considered and accessible toolset that would allow myself and others to create loads of new content. The DM client is a nice plus, if you have a competent buddy, since it allows for a nice dynamic element and a load of unpredictability. But with the NWN engine, a module simply will NOT be fun unless its well developed in advance, and an online DM should not be the same beast as a PnP one.

A good online DM is a facilitator, not a pure creator, under the NWN scope - he gives monsters tactics, creates surprises, dispenses quests, and generally uses the strictly-defined, pre-existing hard content module to make sure the players are entertained. A certain large degree of flexibility is forfeit in order to keep the interface manageable and realistic, but any sane player should realize that such is the tradeoff of graphics versus pure imagination. There’s no way for the DM to generate whole new areas and monsters on the fly, and if he did, they’d probably suck, since a couple paragraphs of description and several hundred thousand textured polygons of landscape are two VERY different beasts. A PnP DM can say “you wander into a moonlit graveyard”; a NWN DM has to make and plant each tombstone. One has the pure flexibility of imagination during the play period; the other has a mouse and a fixed GUI.

Once people realize this and use the client accordingly, I think we’ll see some real works of genius. Perhaps it won’t be PnP-style genius, but it’ll be NWN genius, and that suits me fine. The game is delivering a fun, unique experience, and I’m really diggin’ it. I’m sorry some folks can’t see far enough beyond their expectations to appreciate it for what it is.

You did what? Let me understand you - you found out that Neverwinter Nights would be published and broke the news that Bioware was trying to keep secret? You told the world? Investigative reporting?

NWN was announced at Gen Con and Bub was there. Along with other writers. Like me.

Its amazing. This is one of the threads I was talking about when I posted “When Game Message Boards Attack”. Its like Legolas followed me back. The only difference is that besides Legolas, everyone makes a mature, thoughtful response. Thank God for Qt3.

I’m totally coming down on the side of liking and accepting NWN. I’m a little surprised that Mark seems so discouraged with the game. The game is so worth 50 bucks IMO. However, I generally wait to see where Wumpus and Chick come down on a game. Whenever they agree that a game is good, then its a great game.

“Reviewing a game based on expectations is ludicrous.”

I agree. But if I was reviewing the game, I’d have to comment on how crappy the multiplayer experience has been for me so far. Two nights and I’ve tried about a dozen different public games and all of them sucked. I really don’t know what I’d say in a review about the multiplayer at this point. If the multiplayer’s only good if you only play with people you know, that’s not exactly a strength.

I don’t get it - do you own the game? If not, how do you know it is worth $50? If so, why are you waiting to see what Chick & Wumpus think?

“I’m a little surprised that Mark seems so discouraged with the game.”

I’m having a great time with the single player game. I’ve also had a bit of fun playing a mod or two offline. The multiplayer game for me so far hasn’t been good.

As evidenced by the debate on this board and other gaming boards, knowing whether a game is good or not is best left in the hands of the arcane masters. Whether I think a game is good or not is too subjective to have universal truth. Rather, we rely upon the collective ‘we’ to make the determination. In the case of Chick/Wumpus, I am simply making a shortcut through the use of the Yin/Yang of our religion. Is this clear my brother?

:wink: