Old World (pka Ten Crowns) from Soren Johnson

What baggage is that? e: i see you posted right before I asked!

I’m greatly enjoying Old World. My chief complaint is that the game isn’t more widely recognized, making the MP community much smaller than it should be.

MP in particular solves a lot of the Chick parabola issues because you’re playing with other humans. Network game have their own frenzied pace (not much time to min-max) whereas play-by-cloud offers a more meditative experience, akin to chess-by-mail.

The game has great depth, particularly in multiplayer, and I’d love to see matchmaking and a ladder system alongside the Steam release.

That and an expansion name that is far more SEO friendly than “Old World” (seriously, Ten Crowns was way better as a name just from a search engine perspective — everyone I talk about the game with confuses it for New World or Old World Blues).

To your other points:

There are a lot systems, and they interlock quite elegantly I’d say. For example, adjacency bonuses are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things and aren’t worth stressing over (but are nice to have, and usually pretty straightforward to optimize for once you learn the systems.)

Discontent and Opinion and Luxuries and characters are all intertwined. I do agree that many systems aren’t particularly individually impactful but are on aggregate — there’s a beauty in assembling a bunch of small bonuses into a larger strengt.

I’m not sure I understand your critique around too many decisions — or are you referring to the late game? I find right around the game starts to bog down in too many cities, it’s also ending. And there are automation options to help as well.

I would recommend Soren read this really great essay on this very subject! ;)

EDIT: The essay link now appears to be broken (?!) so here’s an alternate link.

I know it’s not just me, but I can’t help but wonder what a difference it would have made if Old World hadn’t been exclusive to Epic. Did that blunt its potential impact? Obviously it did to some degree, but I just don’t know what that degree is.

And not so much in terms of a smaller multiplayer community, as you mentioned, but in terms of being a part of the wider conversation about strategy games, in terms of “infecting” other people with that same sense of “before Old World” and “after Old World”. That was a no-brainer for Civilization IV because it was the latest in the single most popular strategy game series of all time. But Old World doesn’t have that advantage, and it’s spent so much time holed up with a smaller retailer that it will be trivially easy for people to just skip it and be none the wiser, even after it’s Steam release next year.

Marketing, man. What a terrible thing to have to do to a creative vision. :) And, yeah, how much impact was blunted when it lost the name “Ten Crowns”? We’ll never know.

-Tom

Eh, every name comes with potential issues.

HeHe I read the whole essay before I looked at who wrote it.

I don’t think I experienced this playing Old World and haven’t been able to figure out what you’re referencing. What were some of the systems that felt this way to you?

This issues falls into a few different camps. One is the combination of multiple resource pools and interlocking systems. An example of this would be deciding to supplemental city production with specialists in Old World as opposed to Civ IV. In Civ IV, you just need to have buildings which allow a certain number of that specialist (and the buildings are buildable in a fairly straightforward way with production) and then you just click the population to make a specialist. In Old World, you need to build structures on the map first, to house the potential specialists, which requires both workers and a variety of different resources, as well as the right kind of terrain (or positioning for urban tiles). Then, once you have the structures built, you then need to build the specialist, consuming civics production and, and also consuming a citizen. If you don’t have enough citizens you need to raise your population production and let it accumulate to create citizens. It’s more steps, more decisions, every step of the way. Now, a lot of this can be quite interesting, with some cool strategic interactions (an example of why there’s so much I like about Old World) but at the same time the game tax of both obsessive pre-planning and micromanagement is high, much higher than in previous games. This is an example of why I describe my view on the game as “love/hate”.

A second example would be the decision to take on a bigger goal like say the Objective to build 100 urban tiles. This is not just a “simple” matter of getting the workers and resources to go out and build 100 urban buildings in your lands. Although the time and resource requirements are truly enormous, what makes it actually difficult are the availability of tiles, and the positioning requirements. You can’t just plop down urban buildings wherever you like; you have to plan a gradual layout building out from other urban tiles (or use the small number of urban buildings which can be built independently). Also, you are going to need very large numbers of both workers and resources, and if you don’t have those, building them up takes many steps. Now, there’s an alternative on this one of having a Builder leader and buying the tiles but getting a Builder archetype into the leader role is yet another parade of many steps and contingencies. Again, as with example one, there’s a lot of strategically interesting stuff going on here, but, again, the micromanagement and OCD/game tax is high.

And in both of these examples, I ultimately end up feeling partway through the project that I’m not doing anything interesting; at some point I’m just clicking buttons and effectuating decisions I made many turns ago, not making new and interesting decisions.

The big picture here is that the game has many great ideas but the overall design got way out of hand in terms of complexity and would have benefitted from a fairly intensive round of streamlining.

Sharpe, that is very interesting. I don’t think the way you do at all. For example, I wouldn’t look at city specialists and decide, “that’s something I need to tech to.” I know they are there, so I suppose I’ve mentally absorbed the prerequisites on some level. But in a game, I’m just going to decide whether to build a specialist when I’m choosing the next job for a city if it’s available and seems like a good idea at the time. If I can’t build a specialist due to poor growth rate, I might then decide to do something about it. But usually growth rate is fine and I have a useful building or unit that needs done if I’m close to getting a new citizen. As for specific citizens, I don’t really run into situations where I have to develop a tile in a way I don’t want to get a citizen I want. Usually I want both. So I just develop the city with workers based on what I’m seeing on the tiles, and get relevant citizens later without worrying about them.

100 urban tiles is an objective I would just skip. :P Usually one or two ambitions feel unbearable to me and the other(s) have a path I want to follow. If I had to develop 100 urban tiles, though, I’d just get my workers going and perhaps make peace so I didn’t have to spend resources on armies.

I definitely struggled with the “why” of this game’s many mechanics before I realized a lot would sort themselves out if I kept prioritizing positive resource gain rate. There aren’t really any bad paths to head down other than ignoring generation of the resources that can’t be traded for too long.

You have me wondering what I’m missing by playing the way I do, though.

I agree the game could use some streamlining, and some of the ambitions should be reworked (100 urban tiles is not particularly interesting as an ambition, nor is it immediately obvious what an “urban tile” even is to a new player).

Specialists in general feel very weak, particularly urban specialists (I almost never build them). Civic projects similarly feel very weak as well. There are a lot of very small bonuses that I’m not quite sure are even worth it (are Walls really worth building? Wouldn’t I be better off with another unit?)

It’s hard to justify giving up my city’s production queue for something that isn’t a unit: military to go conquer, workers to improve your empire, and settlers to expand. Even disciples for religion feel more “flavor” than necessity – probably better off ignoring religion entirely unless you’re going for a specific build, the ROI is pretty low compared to just building units and going after the enemy.

I almost wonder if civics / civics projects should have their own, parallel production queue, or maybe just be bulk purchases (a city generates civics and then you spend civics to “buy/build” a specialist / civic project instantly, instead of having a second queue). The opportunity cost of having your production queue be tied up for several turns is really painful. (Rushing units with civics eventually scales out of affordability, so in theory you’d actually spend civics on specialists / civic projects).

I love the interlocking complexity of the systems. It’s beautiful.

But at the same time I feel that a lot of the game is irrelevant to those systems – they’re fun to explore (minmaxing religion and theology builds is fun to theorycraft) but well, it feels like 90% of the time the solution is “build units, go conquer the enemy” and anything that slows that process is actively detrimental because of opportunity cost. A great example is Discontent – by the time it really matters, the game is probably decided. I’m not sure you’d be better off managing Discontent early as opposed to just going and building units.

Note: I’m coming at this as a pretty min-max-y player and also am primarily looking at this through the lens of MP, where you can’t just buy off a player with tribute and opinion boosts the way you can an AI. If a player senses weakness they will come after you. (I’m probably in the minority in wanting an even more aggressive AI and an always war mode or something similar).

You are correct it’s definitely not you. My understanding is that going with Epic was sort of the only option, except for winning a lottery, to get the game made. I know the name also made a difference, hell I’ve confused friends of the friends by saying old world went I meant new world and vice versa.

Again part of this was just bad luck, who knew Amazon was going to name their game New World. Which frankly makes less sense than Old world. I doubt lawyers would have allowed but I would have called it Civilization: The Next Generation and CIV:TNG is a good nickname. The fact remains Off World Trading Company, is a fine descriptive name. Ten crowns, isn’t great, but from a marketing perspective, Old World is pretty horrible. Starting with the reason @alcaras brought up SEO.

There are some top notch naming companies, I can personally recommend these guys.
https://www.lexiconbranding.com/. It may not be too late to switch to a better name with the Steam Release.

By all rights, Old World should be a revolution in the 4x genre. While I’m fine with playing more games like Planetfall, the last thing the world needs is another Civ VII, or HumanKind.

Maybe it is the start of a Mohawk naming thing, every game will be “something world” or “world something.”

I’m not sure I agree, and I definitively disagree in the case of specialists, Old world is a straightforward extension of Civ IV. I found managing specialists in Civ IV, required even more micro than anything in Old World.

My issues with Old World, have far more to do with the player, me, than the game design. I’ve been playing computer games since they were invented. I’m simply too jaded. I’m just never going to be as excited with any game as was with Civ 1, Civ IV, Wing Commander, Hunt for Red October, Asheron Call, Master of Orion, or the original Xcom.

The average forum person has 10-25 more years playing strategy games than the average player, and I think an equal advantage in IQ points.

We are Grognands, in every sense of the word except most of us have never been shot at.
Grognands complain, and so do we.

I’m not sure playing more video games or playing them for a longer time really makes IQ go up or, reversely, is an indication of IQ :-]

I’m a little surprised to find that others experienced a challenge to their min-maxing tendencies. I plan as perfectly as possible, and feel the pain of imperfect choices as they become apparent. Basically, I like my roads to be straight. But one of the reasons I owe Old World a paean is that it accommodates my compulsions with well-designed fudge-factors.

[6 FOOT HIGH NEON SIGN] Undo
Being able to step back a misclick is a great invention in interface history. Good interfaces reduce misclicks and include prompts for input which seems unintentional, which achieves the same end. But Old World lets me just undo the misclick instead of adapt or reload. I value that greatly. Further, undo lets me step back unintentional choices. I frequently misjudge whether I can kill a unit. Instead of choosing between quantifying HP or living with catastrophic arrogance, I can just use undo to explore scenarios. If I choose to have a character Endeared to Me in an event, but I learn seconds later that boost to attitude doesn’t bump me into Upset, Cautious, or Friendly, I misunderstood the tradeoffs. In this way Old World isn’t just curing my headaches, it’s given me a new way to get information about the gamestate which the interface does not convey well. Lastly, end-of-turn autosave + undo lets me step back misplay. I don’t feel good about it, but sometimes I would rather sweep a bad decision under the rug than become a better person. Undo is the biggest fudgefactor.

Orders
The option to buy Orders with military training makes Old World easier to play than any other 4x I’ve played. I can usually afford to suffer the cost of 100 shields if it helps me correct misplay without undoing several choices. Creating a single-player turn-timer as Mohawk Games has done solves so many of Civilization’s problems. And allowing some wiggle room through purchasing Orders is a very smart way to corral the player tendency to maximize at the expense of their own fun, without creating a new source of heartache.

The Orders system reduces the computation the player needs to make. It’s not just the flexibility to buy more, it’s the limitation on activity (choices, moves, character action). Because I can’t do everything I don’t have to solve the 4-dimensional matrix of tile improvements, troop positioning, and higher strategic goals, i.e., given this amount of Orders, do I get a better ROI with invasion or turning Stone into other yields within my existing empire?). I only need to know my priorities. If my army mostly idles on a far flank of my empire because I choose worker roads and building courthouses, so be it. The troops are not ideally placed, but it’s not like I didn’t plan right–each turn is a question of priority. As long as I made the most of those orders within each turn, I can’t second-guess whether my troops are fortified in the right place when brinksmanship turns hot–I was never given an allowance of 3 moves per turn. I was given a finite budget and fairly unconstrained travel distances for troops.

Orders are flexible. If I don’t have enough iron , I can build a mine. Anywhere. What a “sub-optimal mine” lacks in iron it makes up for by being cheaper in Orders.

Global Yields
The sharpness demanded by worker improvement–what the kids call “sim city”-is likewise blunted by Old World innovation. Resources are rarely local. They mostly pile up at the top of the screen, which is not only visible on every screen, another quiet triumph of the interface, but allow you to sim city with only global needs for stone, iron, and lumber in mind. In other 4x games answering the question, “what resource do I need most?” may require revising more than one strategic layer to close the gap. In Old World you can almost always set a worker to narrow the gap that turn. A mine in city 4 is the same as a mine in city 2. It’s always close to optimal play to build the mine where the available worker is.

The compulsive player does seek to have lumbermills where the governor has “Naturalist (+50% lumbermills and grove yields)” of course, and will feel slapped on the hand for letting workers stray into the borders of other families (where improvements of any type take +1 turn & +1 order). But a no point is Old World as punishing as any other game I can think of. You can leave the +0.5 iron for adjacent mines on the floor and be penalized so insubstantially as to play on the hardest difficulty. Fudge it.

There are only two things you can’t get “wrong.” You can’t undervalue Orders or misunderstand what to prioritize i.e., grand strategy. This is what Old World gets so right.

One layer of strategy I’m currently paying attention to are what kinds of conditions cause certain events. Players learn early not to make parents of people with negative traits. Insanity tends to have deleterious effects. As I’ve played on I’ve noticed that Slavery, in particular, results in rebels on your backlines fairly often. In the screenshot below is the most positive event I’ve ever had. Most games I play with Epics law, but this map is a series of islands, so I used Exploration (Scouts move on water) instead.


This event requires a Regal leader, but beyond that I’m not sure. The tool tip shows both the King and Prince are scholars, which I interpret to mean any Scholar in your court receives +2 wisdom. Here, that puts my prince at 11 and the king at 10. He’s in love with me, so it’s +25 beakers. The event also brings my capital up to Legendary.

Exploration as a law seems quite good when I have a Regal leader. On the other side, I tried rushing Epics to pre-date most of my barbarian clearing in a different game and it wasn’t worthwhile. You can boost your earliest cities 20-50 culture in the best case–it never obviates the need to build a shine, odeon, or get religious. Upon reflection, getting from Weak to Developing is important more in the late game than the early game. You don’t have access to Libraries, Courthouses, Markets until the middle.

Another lesson I’ve learned is that having too many beakers is possible, since it opens up ways to spend Stone and Military Training, not much otherwise. If you’re low on both of those, who cares what you could build with a new technology.

Picked by PC Gamer as best strategy 2021. Well worth it. Congrats Soren and team.

Yes, I have been sort of dancing around it but I’ll likely pick this up before the end of the Epic sale so my Civ-loving girlfriend can try it out (I am very interested, too, but kind of busy right now with Hitman and Warhammer 2).

Well deserved!

Damn! About time!

Thanks all!