Operation Occupy Wall Street

[Jibble]

Get money out of politics. Regulate (and enforce those regulations) big business and banks so they stop gobbling up everything they can get their hands on. Provide for the basic needs of every citizen of this country. This includes medical care.

Right, but what do they want? No one knows!

The event was throwing tea. Into the water. You know perfectly well why they chose that name, and it has nothing to do with “violent rhetoric.”

They didn’t choose the name. Rick Santelli chose the name when he threw his little hissy fit on the trading floor. What they did choose, though, was to bring their usual brand of eliminationist rhetoric to the table and spend months talking about the blood of patriots and “taking our country back” as they walked around with guns strapped to their hips.

But that is all tangential to the point that the Tea Party never occupied anything or resisted police orders in any case that I have heard of, so the entire comparison is moot.

Please stop pretending that the Tea Party events were limited to small, carefully organized, peaceable gatherings within the rules of the day. What is it with the amnesia surrounding all the screaming nutjobs at the town hall meetings in late '09? The Tea Party did plenty of occupying that fall. Any of those guys get pepper sprayed in the face?

Destructive, maybe. Violent, no.

It might not be violent, but you’d have to be naive to think it wouldn’t be immediately decried as violence. There are too many people just begging for an excuse to shut this whole thing down for it to be portrayed any other way.

[The_Mad_Hatter]

“You guys have all the bread and circuses you could want! Why aren’t you satisfied?”

This absolutely worst angle of attack to make. There is absolutely no reason why people who are dissatisfied have to wait to have the iron heel of a dictatorship grinding their neck into the curb. Every time I read a scathing comment involving “entitled protesters and their iphones” I laugh and laugh and laugh because the poster clearly has no clue how to differentiate between reality and fantasy. It turns out most Americans aren’t socialists, and like buying things! Gasp!

You’ve also managed to miss one of the major causes for these protests - protesters who believe they have no future - which makes your “all they know is middle-class” a silly point. Maybe they do in fact know what nothing is, and very much want to avoid it.

How poor do I have to be protest, incidentally? I’m curious.

Where did I say anything about not being allowed to protest? You can protest all you want. Find a new park to occupy, smoke a bong and chant along to the drums, yell a few slogans about the fat cats in their top hats running the banks. I’m sure it will be very satisfying. You can even stick it to the Man and jeer at the cops when enough complaints are made and you get evicted again.

Meanwhile, a few more hundred people in Damascus, Homs and other Syrian cities will be gunned down, blown up or be tortured to death as the Assad government uses every resource at its disposal to hold onto power.

Like I said, there’s a legitimate cause for complaint but the American equivalent of the Arab Spring this is not. To even make the comparison is an insult to people dying for their freedom right now. That’s what not having a future really means.

[Jibble]

How poor do I have to be protest, incidentally? I’m curious.

Well, that depends. How many times have you had to fight a coyote so you could eat?

[The_Mad_Hatter]

I should know better than to wade into P&R, but I have a kid on the way and I’m suddenly very concerned about the world he’ll grow up in, so…

I don’t think it’s a simple view of the world to expect better from the human race. Naive, perhaps, but not simple. What the OWS protesters want is easy to explain. I don’t understand why people keep saying there’s no clear message. There is.

Get money out of politics. Regulate (and enforce those regulations) big business and banks so they stop gobbling up everything they can get their hands on. Provide for the basic needs of every citizen of this country. This includes medical care.

I’m not sure what you mean by expecting better from the human race, but I’m a cynic from way back. I don’t believe humanity is capable of that kind of change. We’re no different from those who wiped out the native peoples of North America and put people in ovens because of their race, we just have better technology. As for your practical proposals, they sound nice in theory, but then I’m a Canadian - most of what you mention already exists here. The United States is built on a different model, and it would be a very long and complicated process to change it.

[Lum]

And do you really consider destruction of property without any risk to human life “violent”?

You would if OWS trashed a bank. Meanwhile I haven’t seen any OWS protestors showing off their rifle collections.

[AaronSofaer]

Where did I say anything about not being allowed to protest? You can protest all you want. Find a new park to occupy, smoke a bong and chant along to the drums, yell a few slogans about the fat cats in their top hats running the banks. I’m sure it will be very satisfying. You can even stick it to the Man and jeer at the cops when enough complaints are made and you get evicted again.

A wonderful straw man, but with very little relation to the actual situation. A perfect example, however, of the conservative, Fox-News-watcher’s talking point, which I suppose you might even hold to be true.

After all, living in utter ignorance is easy; it takes effort to find actually-factual information nowadays.

[mrmolecule88]

Where did I say anything about not being allowed to protest? You can protest all you want. Find a new park to occupy, smoke a bong and chant along to the drums, yell a few slogans about the fat cats in their top hats running the banks. I’m sure it will be very satisfying. You can even stick it to the Man and jeer at the cops when enough complaints are made and you get evicted again.

Meanwhile, a few more hundred people in Damascus, Homs and other Syrian cities will be gunned down, blown up or be tortured to death as the Assad government uses every resource at its disposal to hold onto power.

Like I said, there’s a legitimate cause for complaint but the American equivalent of the Arab Spring this is not. To even make the comparison is an insult to people dying for their freedom right now. That’s what not having a future really means.

So unless I’m being shot at I’m a lazy, hippie stoner. Gotcha. I should probably go ask my mom to apologize from bringing me up so terribly.

What’s it like living in a world with absolutely zero sense of scale? I’m curious.

[Eric_T_Cheng]

UC Davis Chancellor Linda Katehi pass by hundreds of student protesters in a silent walk of shame to her car.

[JeffL]

Actually the irony is that they are probably protesting every single person in this forum, as we are the ones who are simply watching on TV and posting on computers from comfortable easy chairs. ;)

[Andy_Bates]

I never said they participated in something as violent as the original Tea Party (by the way, I’m glad we agree that it was violent now), so I’m afraid you’ll have to play that game with somebody else.

I never conceded that the Boston Tea Party was violent; I asked if they ever did something AS violent as that. Since you can’t find anything that Tea Partiers did that was as violent as the Boston Tea Party, the whole question about whether or not that event was violent is, again, moot.

Also, it’s not my analogy. It’s theirs. They picked it. If you don’t like the connotations, take it up with them.

They picked the name, but you’re the one coming up with the rationalization that, because they related their movement to something that you call “violent,” the current incarnation must also be violent. It wasn’t, and it isn’t, which is why the lack of police action is completely understandable.

[The_Mad_Hatter]

A wonderful straw man, but with very little relation to the actual situation. A perfect example, however, of the conservative, Fox-News-watcher’s talking point, which I suppose you might even hold to be true.

After all, living in utter ignorance is easy; it takes effort to find actually-factual information nowadays.

I’ve never watched Fox News in my life. I have walked through the local Occupy Ottawa group though. They seemed like a friendly bunch (though they’re tired of homeless people coming around, apparently), but I definitely recognized the smell in the air. It took me back to my student days, when I believed in similar things.

[Andy_Bates]

They didn’t choose the name. Rick Santelli chose the name when he threw his little hissy fit on the trading floor. What they did choose, though, was to bring their usual brand of eliminationist rhetoric to the table and spend months talking about the blood of patriots and “taking our country back” as they walked around with guns strapped to their hips.

But what did they actually DO that was violent or a protest? Stop talking about “But they said things!” and “But they carried guns!” When did they actually defy police orders, or do anything that would in any way require a police response?

Please stop pretending that the Tea Party events were limited to small, carefully organized, peaceable gatherings within the rules of the day. What is it with the amnesia surrounding all the screaming nutjobs at the town hall meetings in late '09? The Tea Party did plenty of occupying that fall. Any of those guys get pepper sprayed in the face?

I don’t know: Did they do anything illegal or defy police instruction at any of those events? And tell me, how is attending a meeting considered “occupying”??

I get that you want to justify the claim that Tea Partiers got preferential treatment from police, where OWS does not. But to make your case, you have to argue that a name is violent, or that speaking out is the same as resisting arrest, or that attending a meeting is the same as “occupying.” None of those things are true.

[Jibble]

I never conceded that the Boston Tea Party was violent; I asked if they ever did something AS violent as that. Since you can’t find anything that Tea Partiers did that was as violent as the Boston Tea Party, the whole question about whether or not that event was violent is, again, moot.

So, what is this violence that OWS has perpetrated that resulted in their treatment by police? This argument is skewing off into a weird territory.

They picked the name, but you’re the one coming up with the rationalization that, because they related their movement to something that you call “violent,” the current incarnation must also be violent. It wasn’t, and it isn’t, which is why the lack of police action is completely understandable.

Again, I ask why there weren’t more arrests of the more energetic protesters at the town hall meetings.

Also, let’s be honest here. The Tea Party movement was comprised of aging paper tigers. They strap on their guns and they yell and scream and puff themselves up, but at the end of the day they’re not going to rise up and try to overthrow the government. They were upset that they lost and wanted to throw themselves a nice big pity party so people would pay attention to them.

[The_Mad_Hatter]

So unless I’m being shot at I’m a lazy, hippie stoner. Gotcha. I should probably go ask my mom to apologize from bringing me up so terribly.

What’s it like living in a world with absolutely zero sense of scale? I’m curious.

Like I said, I’ve no problem with OWS, but my own sense of scale forces me to point out the absurdity of comparisons with groups that are fighting brutal dictatorships. The United States has many problems, but it’s not a dictatorship or any kind of police state.

[Lum]

any kind of police state.

Even aside from the militarization of the police under the banner of the charming agency above, arguing that the US isn’t “any kind of police state” is eloquently disproven by the relative treatment of tea party protesters (who were given run of wherever they went with police protection and the usual protest infrastructure such as PA systems, lighting, and sanitation) and OWS (who from day one were harassed by police, prevented from using any bullhorns much less PA systems, and who were eventually put down with brutal force).

Is the US as oppressive as North Korea? Burma? or China? Of course not.

When you get to countries like Russia, you start to get close, and that should trouble everyone.

[AaronSofaer]

I’ve never watched Fox News in my life. I have walked through the local Occupy Ottawa group though. They seemed like a friendly bunch (though they’re tired of homeless people coming around, apparently), but I definitely recognized the smell in the air. It took me back to my student days, when I believed in similar things.

That’s nice; when I went to Occupy Baltimore, they seemed like a friendly bunch, and I got into a great hour-and-a-half long 3way argument with a history professor at UMD and a doctor who owns a family practice.

The difference between me and you is that you take your shallow anecdote and don’t bother to even hesitate in applying it to everyone everywhere, not to mention the fantastic digs at people believing “similar things”.

I guess I’m in that phase of my life where I believe “similar things”, like incorporating externalities into the cost of doing business and eliminating subsidies for large agricorps. Naive, crazy things that only a hippie would believe, amirite.

[The_Mad_Hatter]

Heh…okay, fair enough, I’m not going to defend the Patriot Act or its creations. The “war on terrorism” has reduced all of our freedoms, sadly.

[Jibble]

But what did they actually DO that was violent or a protest? Stop talking about “But they said things!” and “But they carried guns!” When did they actually defy police orders, or do anything that would in any way require a police response?

Yeah, they never did anything violent. Ever.

And tell me, how is attending a meeting considered “occupying”??

So you’re downgrading the organization of a group of people to shout down a meeting as “attendance”. Cute.

I get that you want to justify the claim that Tea Partiers got preferential treatment from police, where OWS does not.

Not so much, no. I’m simply putting the lie to the suggestion that the Tea Party was a completely benign event.

But to make your case, you have to argue that a name is violent

Wrong poster. I’m not arguing that. I pointed out that the name was simply a cute slogan given to them by a business reporter. It gave them an excuse to get out their tri-corner hats and “Don’t Tread on Me” flag and get together for Founding Fathers Super Fun Cosplay Time.

or that speaking out is the same as resisting arrest

I didn’t suggest that at all. You’re propping up strawmen all over the place here.

or that attending a meeting is the same as “occupying.”

Again, “attending”. Going into a public space, spreading out to get maximum effect, and screaming at the top of your lungs to drown out any meaningful chance of debate seems like an occupation of the space to me. Before you try to prop up another strawman, I’m not suggesting that it’s the same thing as trespassing in a public park for three months, but let’s please stop pretending that the Tea Party was innocent of any wrongdoing.

[Fishbreath]

Like I said, I’ve no problem with OWS, but my own sense of scale forces me to point out the absurdity of comparisons with groups that are fighting brutal dictatorships. The United States has many problems, but it’s not a dictatorship or any kind of police state.

It’s really not worth defending yourself. There are about four schools of thought on OWS, two of which are relevant here:

1. People with sympathy toward the problems that they see, who think that there are some criticisms the movement deserves. You seem to go in this one. People here are generally okay.
2. Rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth, any-negative-comment-deserves-a-pile-on supporters of the movement. A lot of the posts in this thread come from members of this group, and no matter how much you agree with them, if you’re saying anything that’s not glowingly positive about Their Movement, then you’re the enemy.

[Fishbreath]

When you get to countries like Russia, you start to get close, and that should trouble everyone.

Curiosity: what’s your experience with Russia?