Since this has become an “all-purpose” comics thread all of a sudden, I thought I’d ask:
Anyone reading the Fantastic Four “relaunch”? They got Mark Waid and it began with that .09 cent promo issue, #60 I think. Anyway, it’s silly and whimsical but does a lot to bring back the innocence of the original comics. They aren’t super-heroes, you see. They’re Explorers of the Unknown… or more aptly put: Challengers of the Unknown to reference the Kirby comic that led to the FF.
Best FF since Byrne, but that isn’t saying a lot. I’m with it just to see how he eventually handles old Von Doom. I love Von Doom.
“And again, so what? If the end product is good, who cares if it was inspired by greed and marketing?”
That’s fine. Just so long as they don’t milk it for more than it’s worth. It’s too soon for them to follow this madness again. While all the comic companies were guilty of excess in the '90’s, Marvel took it to the Nth degree.
I just came back from the comic shop and they have more of the Batman with Jeph and Jim. Must be 2nd printing.
You’re right, it isn’t. In fact, the only good FFs are the Byrne ones and the Lee/Kirby ones. Grant Morrison wrote an interesting mini-series and apparently will eventually launch an “Ultimate FF” set in the FF universe.
I can’t stand Mark Waid’s writing, which I find juvenile, which is saying something when you’re talking about “comics”. DC’s Vertigo line has produced some good stuff, but otherwise DC has been pretty much outdated kiddie stuff and irrelevant since 1961.
I see what you mean Desslock, it is juvenile writing. But I find it tolerable but do wish Waid was a bit more… Busiek. His Furst Family story arc in Astro City was terrific.
But Juvenile works here, as I presume it did on Flash. It’s perfect for kids, which makes it rare and valuable in today’s market and fits the “out of fashion” ONWARDS TO THE NEGATIVE ZONE! old-fogeyness that is the FF. I’m responding to the tone mainly, as this is actually the first Waid I’ve read. But I really appreciate the way he’s handling these characters. It reminds me of how comics felt when I was a kid. No angst - anything can happen - isn’t this fun? Perfect for the FF.
I presume you mean Ultimate universe? Hadn’t heard that, though the rumors of an Ultimate FF have been going around for a year now. Maybe Marvel should straighten out production on the existing Ultimate titles before adding new ones. Agree with your opinion on the FF. I picked it up when I got back into comics a couple years ago, bought all the previous issues of the new volume on eBay for next to nothing, and hated almost every issue. Claremont’s stuff was horrible. I dropped it, then picked it up again before Waid took over. Really enjoyed the fill-in work. Both stories and art were great.
Then Waid. Ugh. Sad, pathetic crap. The childish dialogue, the quasi-reboot where Johnny’s somehow 17 again, etc. Waid’s scripts are just jammed with goofy comments designed for 12-year-olds. And there is a lot of Ultimate-style stuff in there. The last issue featured Mr. Fantastic working in the middle of Times Square while Sue kept him invisible, a subsequent autograph session, and a joke about how he can stretch more than his hands and legs. I should just drop this thing and dig out my old Byrne FF issues. Or start pestering Marvel for another FF Essentials.
I dunno about that. I’ve never been a DC guy, except for a few years in the late 1980s when everybody was buying Batman, so I did too. But apparently the new DC is more like old Marvel, so I’ve been thinking about making a switch. I’ve got high hopes for this new Batman, and am considering adding JLA and JSA. Of course, my Marvel loyalties came out when I was looking at team books and I ended up adding Avengers to my pull list. Old habits die hard. ;-)
And speaking of Batman 608…anyone want to guess when Marvel’s going to dump the new numbers and go back to the original, bigger ones for good? They’ve been printing both on the covers now for at least a year. Personally, I prefer the old numbers. Just something impressive about a comic that’s in print persistently for decades, and seeing the numbers that prove it. Plus, Marvel’s really overdone this series relaunch stuff. How many volumes of Captain America titles have there been now? Four or five? Sheesh.
Marvel’s stuff, aside from Captain America/Sub-Mariner, was born in the 60’s so it feels and looks much more contemporary than DC’s born in the 30’s-50’s stuff. Marvel characters are still classic characters on par with DC’s proto-heroes though, something I still doubt we’ll ever call Spawn or even The Savage Dragon.
Anyway, that’s my explanation for the juvenilia argument. DC heroes tend to be on the …um… less in touch, side. Even if they are great characters.
Alan Moore’s “Watchmen” and Frank Miller’s “Dark Knight Returns” were only the main media darlings in the “comics for adults” reports in newspapers and TV back in the 80s. Both were DC books.
More “juvenile” DC comics:
Len Wein/Bernie Wrightson “Swamp Thing”
Alan Moore’s “Swamp Thing”
Frank Miller’s “Batman: Year One”
Kyle Baker, “Why I Love Saturn”
Kyle Baker, “You Are Here”
Howard Cruse, “Stuck Rubber Baby”
Howard Chaykin, “Blackhawk” miniseries
Howard Chaykin, “The Shadow” miniseries
Andrew Helfer/Bill Sienkiewicz/Kyle Baker, “The Shadow” series
Michael Kaluta “The Shadow” series in the 70s and various graphic novels
DC’s entire “Piranha Press” imprint, aimed at adults
DC’s line of “Big Books” like “Big Book of Freaks,” etc.
This leaves out all Vertigo titles, which have been dozens over the years.
etc., etc.
Calling DC less mature than Marvel is pointless…
But if you really want to talk about “mature” comics, Marvel is not the example to hold up. You have to turn to small press imprints like Fantagraphics and Drawn and Quarterly, that don’t publish comic books about people in wacky capes and costumes, but instead focus on real people and the challenges and humor of real life.
Completely agree – and all of the examples you mentioned were consistent with and could have been branded under, to the extent they were not, DC’s Vertigo brand. The “juvenile” comment was just directed at the writing and style of the typical DC “superhero” book. Even though Marvel still costumed mopes, of course, it’s definitely moved away from them for the most part (other than iconic characters like Spidey). The Xmen no longer wear costumes, for instance.
But like Bub said, DC superhero books seem like they always been oriented at 12 year olds (or at least be enjoyable to them), other than one-shots like Millar’s outside-of-continuity Batman capers. Which is an interesting target market for 20 page books that cost $3.00+, which is probably why they sell so terribly. Bringing in names like Jim Lee and Kevin Smith obviously helps that, however.
Keith Giffen’s run on DC’s “Legion of Super Heroes,” as well as his run on “Justice League International” and “Justice League Europe” were directed at a more mature audience.
Alan Moore’s “Swamp Thing” was part of the main DC universe; the Justice League appeared in it, and Swamp Thing was part of “Crisis on Infinite Earths.”
Keith Giffen’s “Dr. Fate” miniseries, Kyle Baker’s “Justice, Inc.” book, Grant Morrison’s run on “Jusice League,” Mark Badger’s “Martian Manhunter” miniseries, the entire “Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight” series and “Batman: Black and White” miniseries, as well as “Batman: Jazz,” Grant Morrison’s “Batman: Arkham Asylum,” the “Deadman” series and miniseries, the Neal Adams run on “Green Lantern/Green Arrow,” the Kevin Smith run on “Green Arrow,” Mike Grell’s “Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters” (complete with explicit torture scenes), the “Vigilante” series, the “Thriller” series, etc., etc.
All of those, as well as Frank Miller’s two famous Batman series, are DC superhero books aimed at mature readers. None of them were Vertigo books. (“Swamp Thing” went Vertigo long after Moore left).
How many more do I have to list until you admit you were just paying more attention to Marvel, and didn’t bother to search for the adult books on the DC side? This generalization only applied in the '60s, when Marvel first began. After DC’s sales started to slide, they started introducing more mature stuff at a gradually increasing rate. By the '80s they were pretty much equivalent to Marvel.
oh, and I forgot the DC “Spectre” superhero series of the ** '70s ** written by Michael Fleisher which featured such scenes as bad guys being frozen in place, then sliced into phone-book wide chunks with a chainsaw
and the Matt Wagner grisly “Demon” miniseries, as well as the Jack Kirby “Demon” series on which it was based, and the Garth Ennis “Demon” series that resulted from it (non-Vertigo), and the “Lobo” books with great Simon Bisley art (“Lobo” is a “Legion of Superheroes” character),
blah blah blah
meanwhile Marvel was obsessing over Kiddy Pryde, teen mutant soap opera star
By the way, in Giffen’s main run on “Legion of Super-Heroes,” none of the heroes wore costumes or went by their superhero names… this was 14 years ago!
>How many more do I have to list until you admit you were just paying more attention to Marvel, and didn’t bother to search for the adult books on the DC side?
Heh, fair enough – I paid attention enough to know that the books you’re citing are at least as “mature” as anything done by Marvel and that therefore you’re right. Well argued. I just tend to associate Morrison/Moore with their non-mainstream stuff, and all of the characters you mentioned other than Batman (Millar’s stuff opened a lot of doors) and Morrison’s JLA, as fringe characters in the DC universe.
I’ve also consistently been really disappointed when DC creative teams, like Waid and Tim Sale, take over Marvel books.
Bottom line: good artist and good writer given some creative freedom can make any characters entertaining, regardless of the character’s history or baggage. Bad writers and good characters=Most of Marvel’s Xbooks in the 90s, even thought they sold like gangbusters because of the cartoon, etc.
