Pathfinder: Kingmaker

I’m curious about this one myself, but I’ve come around to this way of thinking with pretty much all epic RPGs these days. Anyone rushing to play these kinds of games as soon as they come out – especially when they’re from relatively untested developers, as is the case with this Pathfinder game – is just asking for heartbreak. Kristi, you mention a week or two, but I consider that optimistic. It seems the most prudent thing to do is give these games at least a month or so.

-Tom

Yeah a few of these games need some – what’s the word? Hmmm… “seasoning” may be the word. Might be 3 months .

I’ll take one for the team. I’m bored and have been waiting for a new D20 game forever. Like, since Dragon Age:Origins.

God, I hate bullshit one-off rpg systems that borrow from MMOs.

Id like to know if the combat is similar to PoE and Tyranny. While I like the game world in those games, the combat was super repetitive and dull. I found myself doing the same things over and over. Leveling up did not unlock a bunch of cool new abilities, just similar but “different” abilities. I do not want to get into another RPG like that.

Oddly, I enjoyed the combat in D:OS2, even though I had a much more limited set of skills.

How familiar with D&D 3.0 or 3.5 are you?

I think I played 3rd edition, maybe 3.5 d&d like decades ago…

However, you played a lot of PoE and PoE 2. How does it feel to you? Similar or different?

Well, this is a difficult comparison because I think we are at odds philosophically with regards to PoE, because to me the skills in those games were pretty fun and the combat was compelling and I enjoy diving into that stuff. As such, the crunchiness of D&D satisfies me quite a bit.

But looking at what you describe as likes and dislikes, I’d be remiss if I told you Pathfinder is going to have a ton of amazing combat skills and options at every turn. I mean, a basic Barbarian can Rage and then swings her sword like a pro, but she’ll Rage automatically for you* and select a target and she’s off to the races. Other than selecting a target, you aren’t doing anything with her. Fighters don’t even have Rage though they do have some tricks if you spec them towards said tricks, like trip attacks. I suppose Barbarians can get access to trip attacks as well, they are just feats anyone that meets the requirements can pick up. Are trip attacks in this? I think they are, actually, but I don’t know for sure. Most fighters are just tanks** and what you are looking for with lots of abilities and skills are actually spell casters, maybe a mid-level Ranger or Paladin with spells and some neat options. You could play as a Magus, they have quite a few tricks up their sleeve but can be hard to build out correctly/well and a very micro-intensive.

I recorded a video a few posts up this last weekend and there is some combat in there in the second half, if you want to take a look at some examples of early game combat.

*This reminds me, there is SOME AI going on here, to bring comments from the AMA together and folks such as @stusser being a little bummed about a lack of AI management, because I know for a fact the barbarian drops Rage at the start of combat without me doing it, and maybe other examples as well I wasn’t paying attention to?

**PoE and PoE2 has a neat system of making melee opponents that break from you feel the pain with a Disengagement attack, which has a higher chance to hi/crit. D&D has an “attack of opportunity” but it’s just a regular attack, so it’s harder in Pathfinder to protect your weaker back row characters from charging enemies. Just a heads up. Though, in D&D/Pathfinder you can draw an attack of opportunity from an enemy simply by being in melee range with them when you drink a potion, or fire a ranged weapon, so there are more off-turn attacks being made in that way.

Did that email to backers with details on keys go out? I must have totally missed it as I didn’t see anything come in over the weekend.

No, and folks are getting understandably antsy about it…

yeah, I just put together the pieces based on your video you put out yesterday!!! thanks for the personal update Scott!!!

Yeah, D&D 4E was the Gold Star poster child for interesting combat decisions every turn, regardless of character class. Every single class had multiple At-Will, Encounter (1x/fight), and Daily (1x/day) powers, almost all of which had unique targeting, damage, add-on effect, and to-hit properties that could wildly reshape the battlefield every turn. Not even to mention when you start getting into Opportunity Attacks, Prepared Actions, Reactions, etc. – lategame 4E combat was a deep, crunchy tactical puzzle with an absurdly oversized possibility space.

All of which required an extremely solid understanding of the underlying mathematics and systems on at least the GM’s part, and a not-insignificant amount of planning, math, and adaptability on the part of the players building and running the individual characters. Couple that with very barebones guidelines on roleplaying and skill usage, and the game turned a lot of D&D fans off of the game permanently. . .

. . . hence Pathfinder, which returned to the very different set of complexities found in 3/3.5E D&D. Far more Skills, simpler fighter-classes, more complex and powerful spellcaster classes, and fights that were less boardgame tactical and more classically D&D-esque. Hitpoint totals were much lower for end bosses, and the paths to combat competency were much more clearly drawn. In 4E, a frontline attacker might well use Wisdom as their to-hit and damage Stat, while in 3E/Pathfinder, barring enormous feat investment and good gear, if you want to hit things well, you’re going to want as much Strength as possible.

Which returns us to a classic issue in D&D: LFQW, or Linear Fighter, Quadtratic Wizard.

While a Fighter can absolutely obtain some combat utility powers and abilities (Power Attack is the classic example: sacrifice a small amount of to-hit probability to deal more damage?) as they level up, and while there are some modest tactical decisions to be made (moving more than a small 5-Foot Step to re-position sacrifices your ability to make a “Full Attack,” which at high levels might include 3-4 big hits with your primary weapon, or even more if you’ve specced into the sadly inefficient Dual Wield Feat chain), at the end of the day, in most fights, Fighters gonna hit things with swords. Gunslingers going to shoot things with guns. Barbarians going to Rage and then hit things with stuff.

Meanwhile, as you approach mid- and high-level play, Wizards are routinely, you know, Stopping Time itself, crafting whole sub-dimensions with unique physics to build towering fortresses in, delayed blast double fireballing entire armies to death, summoning unspeakable horrors from the Nine Hells. . . *

They’re playing vastly different games, more or less.

* I cannot guarantee the ability to do any of these things specifically in Kingmaker

Interesting, I was just able to generate a backer key for Steam. Add it to my Steam library, but sadly, the key won’t download/ install yet.

Thanks! I was also able to. I had two keys, one for “early access” and one for “digital rewards” and I wasn’t paying attention so I don’t know what they actually were, but both keys are entered now. I think I ended up with the Imperial Edition, looks like, probably because I paid $110 for the Beta Access (and then another $25 for Alpha, iirc). I hope this game ends up good - I put a lot of money into it already…

I’m very interested in this game. Have read a fair amount online, and watched some videos. Key questions I have (apologies if already addressed, I have read quite a bit in this thread, but not all of it)

  1. I see that you can create your own companion characters rather than using the the ones provided in the game. Which sounds interesting to me largely because of the variety of intriguing classes available. I don’t mind if this eliminates some of the banter, I rarely find that stuff all that interesting. But will I lose out on specific abilities related to camping? and abilities related to kingdom management?
  2. In the same vein, I am a little vague on the way the game handles all the recruitable characters. Do you recruit them all, and just put 6 in your party? And then switch characters in and out at will? (One video showed an option in the setting that hinted at this being the case, as though you could choose whether characters in in your party leveled up, but I may have misunderstood.) Are they all available for kingdom management, so that even if your created characters are not as good for kingdom management, you still have the ones that come with the game?
  3. I am curious how alignment of companions fit into this game. I watch videos showing that the characters’ alignments are all over the place. I find this especially odd when it comes to kingdom management. I mean, if you are the one giving the laws, how can you depend on a character who is chaotic? In a dungeon crawler, a chaotic companion is ignoring the laws of some distant authority, but here?
  4. Any good place to read up on the classes and subclasses (or whatever they are called)?

Main character doesn’t have any camping abilities, and I suspect neither do the hand made mercenaries. Not 100% sure, but very confident I’m right. It’s possible there is some sort of generic bonus based on class, but since the main character didn’t have a unique camping action, I think that’s the way it is.

Great question - I have never made it to kingdom management, so no idea. Probably same as camping abilities though.

For number 2 - You gain party members are you play, based on actions and where you explore mostly, and any characters you dismiss from your 6-man team will wait for you back at the trading post (and later, presumably, your kingdom) and you can travel back there and pick them up and swap people in and out, I believe. That’s how it worked in beta, at least.

Your alignment will come into play and put you at odds with the pre-made companions now and then, I have heard some grumblings with my NPC’s now and then. How far down the rabbit hole they take that stuff I can’t say, but I have a feeling by some point in the game you’ll probably have a party of like minded (or hand made) characters as the others will be unavailable.

For reading up on the classes/sub classes I’d go to the official forums and hit up the Everything We Know thread that’s pinned in the General sub-forum. Any classes and races there should then be cross referenced with the online open rules (you can download the PDF’s for free, I’ve seen). My video above I tried to select all the classes and races so you can pause and read up a little that way, maybe?

What I’m really looking for, at minimum, is a Baldur’s Gate 1 level of AI. I want the characters to defend themselves, use all of their passive skills, the cleric to heal people, and magic users to use on-encounter spells. The idea is that if I don’t pause every round, my wizards won’t be shooting off their slings the whole time.

This is in already, from what I remember. Your guys definitively don’t just stand there letting enemies hit them without hitting them back.

This is also done automatically.

This is trickier, because Clerics tend to want to “memorize” non-healilng spells and then convert them as needed into healing. How do you tell the AI which spells to drop? What if a Cleric AI burned your Hold Undead spell for a Cure Wounds spell, and right in the middle of a fight with undead?

The only encounter use spells are actually the cantrips like Ray of Frost, and I have for sure seen the AI casting that stuff in combat on its own.

That’s where the I part of AI comes in. You intelligently pick which ones to convert, the same as a human would. In reality it’s just a simple if/then sort of thing, if there are a bunch of skeletons then don’t convert turn undead, if rock golems then convert piercing spells, etc.

Eh, but in D&D the possibilities extend way past the current fight with the vagaries of Vancian casting and the Adventuring Day™. The human player may be planning to go head to the undead mines after fighting this group of goblins in the forest and would thus save a spell that an AI might sacrifice due to its irrelevance to the situation at hand.

I also found the combat in POE, POE2 and Tyranny repetitive boring and hard to follow. Do you think you enjoyed D:OS2 more because of the combat options and emergent gameplay or that it was turn based? (Or both)

If Pathfinder had a great combat system similar in complexity to TOEE it would be the ultimate game IMO.