PC shoot 'em ups

I’ve been digging into this genre thanks to a recent Groupees bundle. I think we could use a catch-all thread just like the beat 'em up thread. It’s an obscure enough genre on PC that it’s probably best to group the games together. Other consoles are welcome too. I’ll just be focused on PC.

I meant to start this after I tried a few more games, but the gateway games thread got ahead of me. So let’s start at the beginning: trying to get into this genre. I’ve posted before that the biggest roadblock to me was that I didn’t see the point. I don’t normally care about high scores and personal achievement for their own sake. Yet I’ve certainly appreciated those concepts in the context of other games I already enjoy. I’ve been trying to figure out how to get to there from here. This is a bit of a blog. I’m curious to hear everyone else’s story.

Let me use this as a starting point. I think my early experience with the genre was NES side scrollers (which I’ve concluded I hate, so let’s forget them for now) and a few freeware games like Cho Ren Sha 68k. I also had the general sentiment one gets from looking at a picture or video of a bullet hell game, ignorantly thinking it’s incomprehensible, and dismissing it. I think that happens with a lot of genres – hence the gateway games thread.

CRS68K is instructive because I don’t believe it has continues. I was very attracted to the SNES/arcade era look and feel of the game. I wanted to blow things up and see all the bosses. I was a credit feeder before I was aware of that concept. Eventually I reached a point where I had to practice if I wanted to get further in the game. My laziness outweighed my desire. The end.

Jamestown came along a few years later. It was charming and I quickly saw all the levels. Everyone knows the danger with credit feeding is that shooters start to feel disposable, right? It’s simple to beat them that way, and then there’s no reason to go back. This almost happened to me in Jamestown. But I remember something made me go back to it. I don’t know what it was. Suddenly I wanted to see what difficulty level I could 1CC the game. I wanted to understand the scoring system just for the hell of it, and get all the achivements. I had to memorize the levels and the boss patterns.

I went back to CRS68K later and had the same problems as before. Why didn’t that desire immediately carry over to other shooters? I’m not sure. I wonder if it’s as simple as the structure of the learning curve. In arcade shooters without continues, you have to master execution on one level enough to give yourself a few lives on the next level. But you’ll probably come out of there fully equipped to do well on future stages. That’s opposed to traditional difficulty curves, where you beat the game on normal, then hard, then impossible. I was never big on arcades. Maybe I’m not used to that kind of curve. Perhaps I like to see what I’m working toward first.

A little later I did some credit feeding through a few Cave shooters in MAME. They were pretty, but I still wasn’t hooked.

Fast forward to the Groupees douijin (indie) bundle, with Kamui, eXceed 2nd and 3rd, and Hellsinker. I’ve played the first three. They each offer unlimited continues, so I got to see them all first. Like Cho Ren Sha 68k, I loved Kamui for its attractive old-school sprites. It’s so charming that I think I’d recommend that one if Jamestown didn’t exist, though it has horizontal scrolling. eXceed 2nd is an Ikaruga style game that seemed very boring and blah. eXceed 3rd was the first time where I started to appreciate the Japanese flying girls art design and the simple joy of dodging massive, vibrant bullet patterns. It really does look and feel nice to play now. So I’m past that roadblock at least.

I figured the final frontier was high scores and higher difficulty. I looked up the system in eXceed 3rd and discovered the scoring was all about hitting enemies at point blank range. There are even Steam community guide videos that show you exactly where to move your ship. That seemed kind of odd. What was the point? I thought it might be limited to this game. Then I read what is supposedly a common motto in the shooter genre: “Memorize, don’t dodge.” I was dumbfounded. I actually enjoyed the dodging! Was the only hope of advancement going to be rote memorization??

After I went through the stages of grief, I decided that whether that’s true or not, I’d be willing to do it for the right game. eXceed 3rd wasn’t it. I’ve since downloaded the demo to Crimzon Clover. The visuals and sound are extremely attractive. Even the high score list is strangely compelling. I can see my score, the stage I made it to, my highest multiplier, and the date. It’s not a stupid list of initials and score, where I’m stuck in between a silly group of default names. Furthermore, the continues must be purchased by collecting in-game items. Those items persist, which seems like the perfect carrot to keep me moving forward without simply setting the number of continues on the configuration screen, or dooming me to perfection on stage 1. The score system is simple and invites “natural” memorization: I can float through the level puzzling over ways to keep my rate and multiplier up. I literally only have 15 minutes with the game and I’m already thinking about spending $38 for a full copy. Just look at this stage 2 boss (on hard difficulty). I can’t wait to get there!

This feels a lot like that moment of truth with Jamestown. Maybe I just need great presentation and a decent metagame to drive me forward. Maybe I was never going to get anywhere with Cho Ren Sha 68k and feeding credits into Cave ROMs. It also helps that I dove into shmups.system11.org recently to pick up the community vibe. Once I get past an initial appreciation curve, Internet forums usually reinforce my enjoyment.

I’ll be putting my feelers out while I spend more time with the Crimzon Clover demo. I still need to try Hellsinker, and I downloaded the freeware Blue Wish Resurrection Plus, which seems comprehensive and fairly attractive. In the meantime, I’m curious to hear the path other people are on with this genre.

I think I’m significantly less exposed to this genre then Tim or WarpRattler. I played but didn’t enjoy many shmups before Jamestown. I think the level-structure, various difficulty modes and multiplayer were all big turning points for me. The vaunt system is super fun with friends, but isn’t particularly interesting solo. They led me to check out some more shmups, including Treasure’s Wii game Sin & Punishment and Cave’s shooters on the iPad (Bug Princess 2 the most).

I also went back and played some old western PC shmups that I appreciated without liking in the past. Specifically White Butterfly, Garden of Coloured Lights, and Clean Asia.

I felt the same way about them after Jamestown as I did before. They’re all beautiful games with fantastic sound and great mechanics that I can only appreciate at a distance because they’re so goddamn difficult I don’t find them particular fun or satisfying to play. I haven’t really gotten into the doujin scene (though I did play some weird Japanese shmup where dead enemies stuck to your ship making it bigger and better defended at some point, can’t remember the name), though I imagine I wouldn’t be able to handle the difficulty in those any more then western indie shmups. Arguably that means Jamestown isn’t really a great gateway game because it didn’t get me anymore into the genre then I was already. But I think I put in 50ish hours into it, unlocking everything multiple times with different groups of friends, so it’s definitely my most played shmup…

Those abstract games don’t seem to get much credit in the community. I enjoyed trying a few of them, but again, I never got hooked. Maybe they’re a dead end for newbies like us.

I prefer the old arcade sprite look, and I can deal with the Japanese girl look now too.

Good game, but not a shmup.

Crimzon Clover would easily be my “gateway shmup” suggestion if it were on Steam. It’s got the metagame, the production values, and an actual good game to back everything up, and would definitely appeal to western players.

Unfortunately, this is an issue with many of the best shmups on PC: they’re not officially available outside of Japan at all. I’d constantly recommend Crimzon Clover and Imperishable Night to people the way I always recommend La-Mulana, but imports are expensive, and I’d rather not advocate piracy. Similarly, one of my favorite games this generation, Eschatos, is an import-only 360-exclusive shmup; it’s region-free, so at least it’s import-friendly, but that’s still $40, which makes it difficult to recommend to people wanting to try it.

Tim, you get big points in my book for not using the bullshit non-word “shmup.” I used to be big into scrolling shooters myself but am way behind the curve and don’t really dig bullet hell games. I still play R-Type, Gradius, Einhander, you know the classics. I think Sine Mora was pretty good, and I am enjoying Jamestown quite a bit. I’ll be keeping an eye on the thread for any cool stuff I may be missing.

Eden’s Aegis and Blue Wish Resurrection and good, free gateway shooters. They are both Cave-styled dojin games that are very approachable.

Crimzon Clover is the real deal and is worth your money. The quality is high enough that it is even being ported to the arcades.

If anyone is looking for a good intro on ‘how to stg’ check out the guide here. It is a 45 page PDF written by the current western record holder for DoDonPachi. The funny thing is once you start getting into these types of games you will see the hardcore talk about input lag and display lag and emulator lag and rotating your monitor and getting a real stick, but PROMETHEUS plays with a on a crap non-rotated LCD monitor using a fucking keyboard. If you are looking for a TLDR version, this post by Icarus is good.

STG Weekly is a Youtube show featuring commentary over top of high level replays. It is a great way to learn how the scoring mechanics in these games work. They mostly cover arcade and console stuff, but there are a few PC stg’s in there.

What do you like about Imperishable Night? Those Touhou games don’t really jump out at me. Since they’re hard to acquire I think it’s easier for me to ignore them. I’m still curious.

Also, I hope you only recommend La-Mulana as a gateway to the mind-boggling absurdity of old MSX era games!

Shmup is just too much of a mouthful for me. Same with STG. It doesn’t flow for me. I don’t have anything against them though.

I was a little bored by Sine Mora. I lose interest in all the freeware R-Type/Gradius clones after a few minutes. And no, I don’t need a gateway game for side scrollers. That’s splitting hairs even for me. :)

Good to hear. I plan to put some time into BWR+.

Crimzon Clover is the real deal and is worth your money. The quality is high enough that it is even being ported to the arcades.
I’m about ready to pull the trigger – for science! According to this thread, that importer guy says they stopped printing copies after the recent arcade release and he’s down to only a few left. Maybe it comes back or maybe the Steam version comes out tomorrow, but I think it’s worth taking a chance just in case. I spent $50 on Xenoblade Chronicles after threats of limited prints. That turned out well, so if I get burned on CC I can call it even.

If anyone is looking for a good intro on ‘how to stg’ check out the guide here. It is a 45 page PDF written by the current western record holder for DoDonPachi. The funny thing is once you start getting into these types of games you will see the hardcore talk about input lag and display lag and emulator lag and rotating your monitor and getting a real stick, but PROMETHEUS plays with a on a crap non-rotated LCD monitor using a fucking keyboard. If you are looking for a TLDR version, this post by Icarus is good.
Looks good. I vaguely feel like I’ve seen that PDF before. Anyway, this is yet another reminder that I have to find a game I care about first before I go through all this process. Maybe someone prefers the egg to my chicken, but there you go.

STG Weekly is a Youtube show featuring commentary over top of high level replays. It is a great way to learn how the scoring mechanics in these games work. They mostly cover arcade and console stuff, but there are a few PC stg’s in there.
Literally watching it right now. Seems pretty great. I wish they had a few more PC games, but I’ll check out the KAMUI and Hellsinker episodes.

At some point I ought to get some more MAME ROMs and play more of the classics. But I hate messing with all that shady stuff these days.

Rancor is a standup guy. I’ve bought from him a few times. I doubt you’ll see a steam release for CC. But who knows, maybe Nyu media will get a hold of it.

If you do go down that path, Espgaluda is a good intro to Cave shmups. It is fairly easy to beat due to the roll your own difficulty bullet time mechanic. Killing enemies gives you green gems. Those green gems allow you to enter a bullet time mode to get past harder sections. Killing enemies while you are in bullet time mode cancels their bullets into gold, which drives up your score but depletes your bullet time meter faster. So when you start out you are hoarding green gems and using bullet time to get past the more difficult sections. As you improve you are looking to you use your bullet time at the best moment to cash your green gems in for gold and massive points.

In another thread someone mentions Nyu Media did not get it but “someone else did.” That was almost 2 years now so it’s 50/50 whether it ever comes out.

Nyu Media is pretty great though. For those who don’t know, they’re a Western translator/importer kind of like Carpe Fulgar with Recettear. I’ll be keeping an eye on them in the future. They did all the games I mentioned earlier from that Groupees bundle. Looks like Kamui and the other games in that series have been Greenlit, or you can get them now on Desura.

STGWeekly explained the scoring system for Kamui pretty well. It’s simple but I only had a vague idea how it worked and I didn’t understand the tradeoffs until I watched that. I also forgot to mention what a great theme and story that game has. On the video they talk about playing out the drama you get from the barebones story, and you can really see that here.

I feel safe recommending Kamui as another gateway game. Easy to acquire, easy to credit feed and beat it the first time, good scoring system, and all the awesome visuals, crunchy sound, and great music you’d expect. If anyone’s following along looking for another one to play, check it out now for $8 at Desura or wait for some cutrate pricing on Steam.

The various Touhou games each have their own draws, but Imperishable Night is easily my favorite, and probably the most accessible game in the series; it features straightforward scoring, branching paths depending on your performance within stages, the optional “Last Spell” mechanic that gives you huge bonuses for surviving extra-fierce boss attacks, a huge variety of character options (four two-character teams available from the start, and you can unlock the the ability to play as individual characters), and the ever-popular “spell practice” mode, where you can practice against individual boss attacks you’ve encountered during the regular game.

It’s a shame the best Touhou game since IN, Undefined Fantastic Object, is also the hardest game in the series by a huge margin.

I don’t actually recommend the original version of La-Mulana to anyone except MSX fetishists; I’m all about the excellent remake version.

I’ve played through most of the Cave iOS versions, as well as Shogun, and liked them, but wouldn’t recommend them as a gateway due to the different control scheme. My favorite of these is Bug Princess, which actually does offer a level-by-level mode with separate leaderboards that I loved (and even got into the top 5 on the leaderboard for the first stage on the highest difficulty). However, all of them have slightly awkward controls for everything but movement, and suffer from being obvious ports, with some ugly scaling issues. I’ve also wound up with quite a few of the indie games brought over by Rockin Katz and Nyu Media through various bundles, but haven’t put a lot of time into them. None of them jump out at me as great gateway recommendation due to a general lack of polish and features (native gamepad support, resolutions/fullscreen mode, etc.), and fairly lackluster theme/art (generic spaceships or generic anime girls). I also took another crack at Ikaruga, which I had bounced off before, and was able to get a little more into it but still didn’t finish.

I do enjoy the genre now, but nothing else has grabbed me quite as hard as Jamestown’s well-presented, tough-but-achievable challenges. One aspect I had forgotten to mention before is the 5-star ranking system for score; having a concrete score target to reach motivated me to replay and learn levels much more effectively than an amorphous “improve your personal high score, with an effectively infinite ceiling”.

Tumiki Fighters. I really enjoyed what I played of that many years ago!

My experience with vertical shooters is limited. I played Ikaruga a lot on the Gamecube and in the end swapped it for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! (WHHHY?! Ikaruga’s so rare now!!) because I just couldn’t keep grinding the same level over and over again in the hopes of making it to the next to then only die the moment I came across an unfamiliar section forcing me to start again from scratch. I appreciated the mechanics but the ‘1CC’ approach totally sapped any motivation I had to keep plugging away at it. I remember playing Radiant Silvergun on a Saturn somebody lent me but I’m sure you could pop continues into that with the shoulder buttons.

I think Tim nails it regarding Jamestown with “I wonder if it’s as simple as the structure of the learning curve. In arcade shooters without continues, you have to master execution on one level enough to give yourself a few lives on the next level. That’s opposed to traditional difficulty curves, where you beat the game on normal, then hard, then impossible. I was never big on arcades” and “Those items persist, which seems like the perfect carrot to keep me moving forward without simply setting the number of continues on the configuration screen, or dooming me to perfection on stage 1.” That structure and difficulty/learning curve is absolutely vital and fundamental to why I enjoyed Jamestown so much. I knew that finishing a level opened up the next and that’s what kept me playing and allowed me to get better at each stage without dragging me through previous ones. I wouldn’t have lasted nearly as long without that. The kicker? Even after finishing it on Divine with a friend I’ve still no desire to 1CC the game, and Judgement looked a little too much for us. I just don’t have the motivation for that degree of mastery, so yeah, as porousnapkin said “Arguably that means Jamestown isn’t really a great gateway game because it didn’t get me anymore into the genre then I was already”. For the record, with the right games I can be extremely stubborn and persistent but I think it’s the traditional de facto structure of vertical shooters – a structure borne from arcade quarter gobbling – that really puts me off the core genre. So I suppose I’m not averse to the genre, just certain key elements of it which Jamestown doesn’t force. Crimzon Clover sounds intriguing though so I might look into that.

I’m not much of a shmpu player. Do people prefer vertical to horizontal scrolling? Is there a different in the type and style of games that prefer one over the other? (I think all of the insane japanese bullet-hell games are vertical, or at least all of the ones I’ve seen are?). I think the horizontal ones are the “less hardcore” ones, maybe?

The last “proper” shoot 'em up I played was probably Jet’s ‘n’ Guns 5 years ago. Fun & horizontal. The last vertical one I played was probably Raptor back in the DOS days…

A lot of players prefer verts to horis, but I absolutely wouldn’t say one is more hardcore; many of the best arcade horis are absolutely brutal in ways few verts are.

The western shmup community tends to trash horis in general; I would guess a few factors are at play here, the biggest one being that if you play a lot of games on actual hardware, having to rotate your display to play a hori isn’t an enticing prospect. There’s also the fact that a huge number of Euroshmups (western-developed or otherwise; Japanese devs have made them too, and they’re just as bad) are generic R-TYPE clones, which could color players’ expectations. Finally, there’s also the bit where a lot of players are somewhat new to the genre and have never played any good horis (or bounce off the good ones because they’ve got the wrong mindset for them); this is somewhat comparable to the “'09er” phenomenon seen in the fighting game community, where a bunch of new players popped up around 2009 (coinciding with the genre’s “revival”) who don’t understand that good fighting games existed before Street Fighter IV, or that many pre-SF4 fighters are significantly better than many post-SF4 fighters.

Okay, fine. If there is a good (readily available) Japanese horizontal shooter gateway game, I’m willing to take a look at it. If not, I think I will continue ignoring them.

I like Euroshmups in theory, though I haven’t seen any good ones lately. It’s the pure R-type stuff that seems like a lost cause for me.

Jets & Guns is still awesome and worth checking out. Great music, too.

Tim: One of my all-time favorite shmups, Fantasy Zone, is a Japanese hori and is readily playable in MAME, but it’s definitely not representative of hori shmups in general; it’s got more in common with Defender than with R-TYPE.

Also, Jets ‘n’ Guns is one of the few Euroshmups that isn’t met with constant derision by the hardcore community. It’s not especially popular, but it has its fans, which is more than can be said about most of them.

I loved Jets & Guns. GoG has Tyrian 2000 which was amazing, and it works great. Neither of these is in the bullet hell style but they can test you. I played both to death (played Tyrian 2000 to death well before GoG and then again when it came out there). I really enjoy shmups with elaborate upgrade mechanics and possibly meta. I liked Jamestown, but I didn’t get very far with it. I should revisit it. I have no doubt that many of the games I like would be met with derision by the hardcore community and I have approximiately zero fucks allocated to this fact.

I’m struggling to come up with two indie games that were released in the past 5-8 years. One of them was a bit space invaders/galaga like. 1 hit == death, but upgrades provided another hit point and there were armor upgrades to boot (jsut more hit points). It had some really cool score mechanics, and something like 200 levels which you could potentially repeat over and over. Quite a few weapon upgrades if memory served. Vertical, but non scrolling. I swear the name was something like “warbirds”, but I can’t find anything on the tubes.

The second game was free, iirc, and a sort of hardcore Gradius reinvisioning (horizontal scrolling, at least on the first stage). It was super hard, but really interesting. I really thought it had “hydra” in the name, but that might be the crazy talking.

Warblade and Hydorah. I bought Warblade on a whim during the dark era of indie games (and my own personal genre ignorance). Don’t know if it has any cred, but I have zero interest in buying it again.

Hydorah seems to be fairly popular in some ‘mainstream indie’ circles but again I’m not attracted to that style. Oh man, I just remembered how much I hate taking damage from the environment. Ugh.

I played and enjoyed Jets’n’Guns many years ago.