The amazing thing is, no matter how many times it turns out that this is the case, the next time it happens a whole bunch of people will dig in their heels and say no way that happened this time!

I’ll admit I was a doubter.

Mostly because I assumed the military was smart enough not to get caught in something so obvious.
Apparently they got sloppy after decades of no one paying attention to them doing whatever they wanted.

It’s always been this way.

I think I was assured somewhere up there ☝️that a scenario like this was simply unpossible. Something to do with technical specs or something.

Who said it was impossible?

Yeah, I can’t be bothered to search up there for the argument about the specs of Hellfire missiles and the capabilities of cameras and so on.

After Vietnam, too, we lost the ability to have real journalists covering wars without being embedded (read: pretty much muzzled and controlled). To be fair, though, such access was a short-lived phenomenon. WWI saw some of the most dire censorship of the century, WWII wasn’t that much better and even then neither the technology nor the social climate supported incisive and skeptical observation and reporting. It was the combination of television, relatively portable film camera gear, and the 1960s social changes that created the brief window where the society sending its children off to fight as draftees got anything approaching a worthwhile account of what was going on. The military made damn sure to close that window as soon as they could in the 1980s though.

I’ve heard this, but I’ve never quite grasped what made real war journalism possible in Vietnam, and why that sort of war journalism isn’t possible now.

Dude, the stuff I said was all true. They said they did in fact have eyes on the target, because of course they did.

I said that if things went down like the NYT says it did, then that means the military lied about it. There’s no way this was just an “error”.

They said that they specifically used a non explosive hellfire missile. They said there were large secondary explosions.

If the NYT story is accurate, then that shit was all a lie.

I’m surprised that’s a thing, actually, but I guess a few million in R&D can avoid a collateral shrapnel mess.

You didn’t believe the story, because you thought (wrongly IMO) that if the story were true that the US would have to have acted deliberately and then lied about it, and you didn’t believe that they would have acted deliberately or lied about it.

Yet it looks like the story is true. So probably there was something wrong with your analysis, I dunno what. My guess is that there was some middle ground between “the story is false” and “the US did it deliberately and then lied about it”, which is what I was saying all along.

And my statement here is correct, right?

According to your sources, they did not in fact use different munitions and instead used a standard hellfire missile, so that would mean they deliberately lied about that.

And according to your sources, there were no secondary explosions, which they claimed there were, so they deliberately lied about that.

If that story from the NYT is in fact accurate, then that means the military deliberately lied about what happened. And not even limited to subjective observations, but about stuff that they would have had perfect knowledge of, such as the munitions they dropped.

So within a decade Qatar have gone from competing with the Saudis over who could fund the worst religious psychopaths, to being a serious broker in world politics? I really can’t keep up anymore.

They are not my sources, and I don’t think they’re entirely clear, and I don’t think it necessarily means the military deliberately lied to the public about it. Maybe they did, or maybe someone made a mistake, or maybe it was a kinetic warhead that somehow ignited the tank, or maybe there is some other explanation.

They are not my sources, and maybe they were simply mistaken about the secondary explosions.

You’re doing the same thing again: insisting on the most extreme alternative, when there are others available. Suppose the actual pilot selected the wrong missile (mistake), then told the chain of command that he selected the right one (mistake or ass-covering), and the size of the explosion led the brass to believe there must have been secondary explosions (mistaken inference from bad information), and that’s what they said?

And that isn’t even really the problem. The problem was deciding that the car was being driven by a bad actor on the basis of…mostly nothing.

Sorry Scott, I didn’t mean that you had some biased support of those sources, merely that they were the sources telling the story you believe.

They are saying that they did an analysis of the explosion, and it matches the standard explosive head from a hellfire missile.

That would, directly, contradict what the military said.

Even with the possibility of the explosion simply being caused by the gas tank, it strains credulity to believe that such a thing would result in an explosion which exactly matched the explosive profile of a standard hellfire missile.

Beyond that, the military knows what it looks like when the gas tank of a target blows. They specifically talked about very large secondary explosions which could only have come from explosives in the car.

If the NYT is correct in their reporting, then I cannot see this as the simply being mistaken. They had to have lied, intentionally.

Then he lied.

Further, others in maintenance chain would realize the difference when they saw that the ordinance on the Reaper didn’t match what was supposed to be there. So OTHER people would have had to lie too. This stuff is all tracked. The idea that they could have just accidentally dropped the wrong bomb, and then no one would know, just isn’t how the system works.

I just do not see how this could play out as the NYT has described, and have the military provide the story they did, without them knowingly lying.

And to be clear, I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m more convinced that they did in fact lie.

Somboday lied somewhere along the line. I think the military simply assumes it wont be held to account since it never has been before. It’s probably a good assumption.

I really think it was a unique moment in time. You had networks with news departments that were staffed with actual journalists, because the news was a prestige loss-leader type of thing for the networks. It didn’t make them money directly, but it got them taken seriously with the public and advertisers. There were few other near-real-time (comparatively) news sources then. Radio was about it, as everything else was print. Television had immense social influence in an era when it was very hard to impossible for average folks to make the sort of video coverage we take for granted now.

More importantly though, to me it seems that back then, there was still a residual degree of trust in the essential goodness of the national character, and a faith that despite bad decisions and actions we were still on the side of the angels. The media went into the war in Southeast Asia fully prepared to trust the White House and the Pentagon and their assertions that intervening in Vietnam was a necessary part of the broadly accepted strategy of containment. At the same time, they went in with the strong conviction that by covering the war independently and honestly (for the most part, there were of course toadies and lickspittles among the journalists too) they were doing what Americans expected, largely because most had little inkling of the level of lying and mendacity that would characterize the handling of the war. And the military had yet to get the idea that it would be politically acceptable to run roughshod over the press, who at that time still had enormous clout given the concentration of media power in so few hands and the public’s general support of the news organizations. People like Chet Huntley, David Brinkley, and Walter Cronkite were not just well-know, but also revered by many, and papers like the New York Times and Washington Post had a lot of cred and influence.

What happened in Vietnam though was that by around 1968-69, probably somewhere after Tet, the journalists in country became convinced that not only was the war not winnable, but that the US military and political machine was actively covering up things and flat-out lying to everyone. They knew this because they were out there with the troops, and they had connections throughout the system. They also still had an audience back home who believed what they read in the papers or saw Cronkite tell them on TV. Even as the country was wracked by social unrest, there was still the broadly shared idea that somewhere out there there was truth, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof, and that the press had a duty to convey it to the masses.

Of course, we know what happened after all of this. In the aftermath of Vietnam, including stuff like the fallout from the Pentagon Papers, the anger of the media over being hoodwinked by the military, the anger of the military about the way they were (often accurately, sometimes inaccurately) portrayed in the press, and other forces started to erode the status of the press in the broader public.

Once the conservative reaction to the post-Vietnam malaise and the brief liberal interlude of the Carter presidency hit with Reagan’s election in 1980, the Republicans began a war on the press that has continued to this day. It wasn’t hard to get the now all-volunteer military to drastically curtail journalist access on national security grounds, bogus as they usually were. More significantly, in my view the right was able to undermine public faith in the press, aided and abetted to be sure by the venality and avarice of the media moguls who found that the era of 24/7 cable and the rise of things like CNN severely undercut the economic value of expensive high-quality newsrooms. Cable news in turn, with its need to fill every minute of every day with something, anything, further eroded trust in the news, as stuff that never would have made it past the gatekeepers ten years prior was not front and center. Eventually, by the time you get to Desert Storm, the news had become a profit center and the priority was, at the top at least (a lot of journalists were still good, I think) to get access to visuals and stories that would boost ratings. That played into the military’s desire to limit media access, and so the bartering was pretty much a case of access to cool video ops in exchange for effectively censoring or preventing any real combat coverage or deep analysis from the warzone.

The internet of course just exacerbated everything, and the rest is history as they say. But tl;dr, Vietnam took place in my view at a particular juncture of public and private sensibilities and American culture that have never been replicated, and frankly probably never will be again.

I can understand how this motivates the networks, but I don’t really understand what prevents journalists — say, independents and stringers — from simply going where they want to and covering the war they way they want, as journalists did in Vietnam. That’s really the question: is there an actual impediment that prevents them from doing that, or is it just the case that the networks aren’t going to pay for their people to do it? Or does it happen in any case, but it simply doesn’t get on the air / into print / online?

Huh? What? Where are you getting the idea that war journalism isn’t happening? There are quite a few people out there dodging bullets, bombs and kidnappers.

Since Vietnam you’ve had journalists in Afghanistan living with the mujahideen, journalists who lived in Sarajevo while the city was under siege, taking Serbian mortars, tank rounds and sniper bullets. Tim Henman bled out covering the war in Libya.

It’s an extremely dangerous job, and people either get killed, wounded or suffer immense mental anguish once they stop doing it, but they are most certainly still out there doing the work.

Some conflicts are harder than others. They were hunted and killed in Syria. Getting into Chechnya in either war would’ve been extremely hard given the intensity of the fighting, and the barbarism on both sides. I’m not sure if anyone managed.

Well, it’s more a matter of religious psychopaths talking to other religious psychopaths at the end of the day.

Anderson Cooper was dodging sniper bullets for Channel One in the Balkans when I was in high school.

Hell, as Afghanistan fell we had Clarrisa Ward walking through Taliban lines and risking her life like 3 weeks ago. And that was CNN, so it’s not like it’s all minor outlets (though generally speaking the minor outlets do better at this sort of thing in my experience).